Sub 6 hold

Go down

Sub 6 hold

Post by Russ OR on 6/10/2011, 1:00 pm

More a test post than anything, but thought I'd mention the sub-6 hold.
I'm experimenting with holding the top of my front sight at approximately the diameter of the black bull below the black bull. Will see how it goes. - - - - Russ / OR

Russ OR

Posts : 180
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Oregon City, OR

Back to top Go down

Re: Sub 6 hold

Post by F. Paul Figlia on 6/10/2011, 1:03 pm

That's pretty deep six - just the way I like to hold Russ. THe only problems I run into is when there is insufficient white at the bottom of the target for me to fix on.


Last edited by F. Paul Figlia on 6/10/2011, 2:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

F. Paul Figlia
Admin

Posts : 79
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Evergreen, Colorado

http://www.figlialaw.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Sub 6 hold

Post by SteveT on 6/10/2011, 1:14 pm

Full Diameter? That puts the POA near the bottom of the target backer. That seems a little too low to me. I would recommend aiming low enough to be far from the bull, but not so low that your wobble lets you see the bottom of the target.

I aim for the white under the bull. If I am focused on the front sight and If the sights are clear against a white background, the shot is good. I honestly can't tell you how much below the bull I aim. I only know I am somewhere in the white.

Steve Turner

P.S. Test Successful.
avatar
SteveT

Posts : 305
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Illinois

https://sites.google.com/site/sdturner/shooting

Back to top Go down

Re: Sub 6 hold

Post by FaisalYamin on 6/10/2011, 2:46 pm

Tried it early on never worked, even for open sights.

Center hold all the way
avatar
FaisalYamin
Moderator

Posts : 57
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 47
Location : New Jersey

Back to top Go down

Re: Sub 6 hold

Post by FaisalYamin on 6/10/2011, 2:47 pm

Tried it early on never worked, even for open sights.

Center hold all the way
avatar
FaisalYamin
Moderator

Posts : 57
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 47
Location : New Jersey

Back to top Go down

Sub Six?

Post by TAJ45 on 6/10/2011, 4:12 pm

Once you give it an honest try when shooting irons, you'll settle in to pret'near the 'zact same spot everytime. Shot this way for years and my scores never suffered because of that choice.

After a bit, you'll know and feel what seems to be just right.

Another tip I picked up from the Citadel Coach, "Doc", was to put a very small scratch in the blacking on the rear of the front sight. Gives something to really focus on while keeping things "Even Steven" with the rear.

Remember, for quite a while, you are only shooting into an area, not doing BR work offhand. Once you make Olympic Grade, maybe you'll start shooting at chiggers, then disregard the area concept.

Ooooooh I just saw the smilies etc...........I like those as they help to further the mood and inflection of the post. Very Happy Exclamation

TAJ45

Posts : 48
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

sub six hold

Post by nmbuzz on 6/11/2011, 6:42 pm

Just telling Russ I found the forum on Slocats recomendation. Buzz
avatar
nmbuzz

Posts : 26
Join date : 2011-06-11
Location : Northern N.M.

Back to top Go down

Re: Sub 6 hold

Post by Slo cat on 6/11/2011, 9:09 pm

Glad you're here, Buzz.

I attended a pistol clinic at the OTC headed by Erich Buljung (Won CP 1987, Silver Medal Air Pistol, Seoul Olympics, & US Olympic Pistol Team Coach). On this subject he recommended a center hold, "if you can see the front sight clearly in front of the black bull background". If not, he recommonded a sub-six hold.

I think that using 'area aiming' is the key, whether you do this at a sub-six or center hold. I also think either way is correct, if you find what works for you.

I use center hold. I tried a deep sub-six for a while, and it was a disaster for me.

Best Regards,
Slo cat
avatar
Slo cat

Posts : 38
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Conifer, CO

Back to top Go down

Re: Sub 6 hold

Post by DeweyHales on 6/12/2011, 7:52 pm

I like sub-six. I find the black distracts my attention from sight alignment. I am far-sighted. So, I can easily focus on the black if it is in the picture.

With the right level of vision correction, center hold works well.

For those with excellent vision, center hold is great. As a 9mm service pistol shooter, I don't need a sight correction with center hold when moving from 50 to 25.
avatar
DeweyHales

Posts : 614
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : North Carolina

Back to top Go down

Sub Six Hold

Post by penman53 on 6/14/2011, 6:45 am

The sub six hold simply did not work for me. I went back to a six o'clock hold last wee and my shots have improved drastically.

penman53

Posts : 16
Join date : 2011-06-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Sub 6 hold

Post by Al on 6/14/2011, 10:01 am

I did a lot of experimenting 8-9 years ago with Air Pistol. For a period of at least a month I shot nothing but A. center hold, B. Standard (pumpkin on a post)k, C. Line of White, and D. Sub 6 (about 1/2 the diameter of the bull). I kept good records of all my scores and the Sub 6 won by a small margin over the Center hold. As my eye's have deteriorated I have not been able to shoot center hold as well as I could, but the sub 6 still seems to be the one to go to.

FWIW

Al Schirado

Al

Posts : 359
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 63
Location : Bismarck, ND

Back to top Go down

Sub 6 6 hold

Post by nmbuzz on 6/21/2011, 6:27 pm

Very frustrating!! Open iron sight hold at 25 yd apx 1 in below black. At the bottom of black I lose the front sight. Sight in at 25 yd then at 50 shots are at the top of target. In DR do you guys adjust your sights as you would with a dot from 25 to 50? If you do it would follow for me that I adjust the sights DOWN for 50 and or UP from 50 to 25.!!! ??? Is this right??

OBTW I've found a great DR load. 2.8 gr WST pushing a Rem HBWC weighing 148 gr. NOT LEGAL but it makes you feel good as you practice.
I've loaded 158 SWC from Quality Cast over 3.4 gr WST with less than stellar results. Am Eagle 158 LRN do better but not the answer.
Workin on it BUZZ
avatar
nmbuzz

Posts : 26
Join date : 2011-06-11
Location : Northern N.M.

Back to top Go down

Re: Sub 6 hold

Post by Jack H on 6/21/2011, 7:28 pm

A lot of the sight picture success depends on the light conditions on the sight and the target.

Discuss.

Jack H
avatar
Jack H

Posts : 1569
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Oregon

Back to top Go down

Re: Sub 6 hold

Post by SteveT on 6/27/2011, 3:42 pm

Buzz Reed wrote:Very frustrating!! Open iron sight hold at 25 yd apx 1 in below black. At the bottom of black I lose the front sight. Sight in at 25 yd then at 50 shots are at the top of target. In DR do you guys adjust your sights as you would with a dot from 25 to 50? If you do it would follow for me that I adjust the sights DOWN for 50 and or UP from 50 to 25.!!! ??? Is this right??
... BUZZ

Yes! You are doing it right! I know it is weird. I tried to work out the geometry without success, but I adjust DOWN at 50 yards and back UP at 25 yards shooting deep sub-6. When I commented about it on the old Bullseye list others confirmed it. And, yes, most people adjust their sights between 50 and 25.

Steve Turner
avatar
SteveT

Posts : 305
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Illinois

https://sites.google.com/site/sdturner/shooting

Back to top Go down

Re: Sub 6 hold

Post by SteveT on 6/27/2011, 4:48 pm

Nobody makes the case for sub-6 better than the late great Al Bacon. I was fortunate to spend a bit of time with him at Camp Perry 2007. I told him after Perry I was putting my dots away to focus on going distinguished (I had 12 points). He talked at length about the benefits of sub-6. Andy Moody and Brian Zins had promoted it in their clinic, so I figured if all these great shooters felt this way, it was worth a try. It took many sessions to get comfortable and probably 4-6 months before it really felt right. I got my distinguished badge 2 weeks before Camp Perry 2008.

Steve Turner
-------------------------------------------------------

From: Allan Bacon
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 7:15 AM
Subject: POA, 6:00 or Sub 6:00 hold with Red Dot

I agree with center hold for dot sights. No exception!

The only real discussion is with iron sight.

But I respectifully disagree with international shooters using the center hold for precision. For Rapid Fire, center is the way to go. For Rapid Fire (Old Duel) of Center Fire Pistol, it is the way to go. For Standard, Air, Free and Precision of Center Fire I did not. Most of the europeans I talked with did not/do not. (Day Iuga, Ragnar Skanaker, Mortz Minder are three I remember)

There are three general places to aim a target pistol with iron sight. Center Hold, Six O’clock Hold, and Sub Six O’clock Hold or line of white. Here is an analysis of each and in my opinion the pros and cons of each.

A key assumption on this discussion is that we are talking about a 22 that groups one inch or less and a 45 that groups two inches or less at 50 yards in a Ransom rest.

However, this subject is based on my priorities of how to shoot a pistol and what is important, the priorities for shooting a pistol with iron sights are:

1. Sight Alignment.
2. Area Aiming – minimum arc of movement.
3. Trigger Control.
4. Grip.
5. Follow through/ shot recovery.
6. Breath Control (breathing).
7. Stance.

For shooting a scope or dot sight, number 1 is shoot your aiming area – minimum arc of movement.

Here is my analysis.

You cannot hold a pistol still, no one can. The result is that you will wind up having movement. This is more obvious with a scope or dot sight. Iron sights minimize the apparent movement – but have the problem of keeping three objects (front sight, rear sight and aiming area) in alignment. However, you must remember that the pistol is still moving. We all should know from extensive discussion and other written material how slight a tiny (almost microscopic) miss-alignment of sights can adversely affect a bullets impact at 50 or even 25 yards. Thus, with iron sights, sight alignment is the most critical action where errors must be avoided. Inattention to sight alignment is the lack of action that causes most bad shots. Errors in sight alignment cause most bad shots – more so than poor trigger control, because as a shooter progresses up the classification ladder, one’ s ability to call shot placement is enhanced as attention is always placed on sight alignment, (front sight – rear sight NOT including the aiming area) this more than any other factor determines one skill with a pistol because as you have greater ability to call shots, your focus is on what is important, sight alignment, you can call your shots, and because you want to shoot better, your body will eventually get the picture of what is supposed to happen. (This is where setting attainable technical, not performance goals are critical i.e. holding all your shots in the 7 ring or higher is a technical goal, winning the Marksman class at a regional match is a performance goal and in my opinion, is flawed. You do not control who else is there, which will affect your winning. You do control your shots, and that is what your should focus on. But I digress, back to the point of this commentary!.)

Exactly where the aligned sights are pointed is not important, only that the area of interest be on your target, and that you attempt to consistently make this area the same from shot to shot and string to string. You must strive to have a minimum arc of movement while delivering the shot.

Trigger control can best be summarized as the action (vice the inaction of poor sight alignment) that causes most bad shots. If you have correct sight alignment (no errors) and you have good trigger control, (no jerk, heel, or snatch) shooting an accurate pistol, your shot will be a ten. If not, you can used your screwdriver to adjust you sight so that your shots fall within the ten ring. I will save extensive discussion of trigger control for a later commentary, but for the short version, you must pull the trigger in the 10 to 12 seconds you have maximum arm stability, minimum arc of movement between the time you settle into your aiming area, before lack of oxygen causes the brain to lose focus.

Now, lets go back to the subject, where to aim.

Center Hold – Clearly the best for tactical shooing, but for target shooting there are mostly negatives. Given that sight alignment is critical, and tiny errors are fatal, only very young (generally) and very good eyes can discern the minute variances that must be perfect to have target quality sight alignment. Consider that this is a black front site, aligned horizontally and vertically with a black rear sight centered on a fuzzy, out of focus black aiming area at distance? Again this might work for young eyes and/or very good eyes, but I hope you can visualize the difficulty this poses.

Six O’clock Hold – This is the traditional bulls eye hold that has been taught for years. This overcomes most of the problems with the inability to distinguish the minute variances of sight a alignment associated with black on black on black but introduces a new problem. Since we cannot hold the pistol still, we will have the aligned sights moving around the desired point on the target. As the aligned sights move about this area, there is a usually irresistible temptation to pull the trigger at the proper point, resulting in a snatched shot. Depending upon the skill level of the shooter, this generally results with a wide shot, in the 7 ring at the extreme ends of the figure eight wobble area. If this can be overcome, the shot can be well placed, but many times this is not the case. This aiming point technique also tends to cause a shooter to focus on the target – specifically the point of aiming, rather than an area at the base of the black aiming circle. Finally, the Six O’clock hold must really be an area (remember the we cannot hold the pistol still) thus the shooter must accept shots in the black, under the black, to the right and to the left, but this is seldom thought of, but to be successful, this is what must be happening.

Sub Six O’clock Hold – What we are left with is the sub six or line of white. Drop the aligned sights below the aiming black at 25 yards. About where the edge of the repair center is, but if you can see the edge of the repair center, you are doing the same technique as the Six O’clock Hold and all the associated negatives. At fifty yards, you can easily have your area midway between the aiming black and the bottom of the target. You need to experiment with this over several shooting sessions. I found this gave me a clear, unobstructed view of the sights, to achieve better, more consistent sight alignment and I could focus on pulling the trigger without disturbing the sights. There is no urging from your mind to jerk the trigger at a fixed point.

These are the three concepts of where to aim iron sights. I know of several shooters who are quite successful with using center hold at 50 yards and six o’clock at 25 yards to avoid needing to move their elevation to adjust for the 50 from 25 yard come up, but the pros and cons remain the same for each technique.

When I was learning to shoot at Parris Island from 1976-1978 I experimented with each of these techniques and I consistently had higher scores, significantly higher x-counts, fewer heeled or jerked shots and always a more comfortable time shooting iron sights with the sub six o’clock hold. I shot each technique for a year and compared results after three years.

I recommend the sub six o’clock hold for iron sights, especially service pistol.

Allan Bacon

Marine Corps Pistol Champion 1978
Distinguished Pistol Shot 1978
Distinguished Marksman 1982
Presidents Hundred Winner 1982
avatar
SteveT

Posts : 305
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Illinois

https://sites.google.com/site/sdturner/shooting

Back to top Go down

Great at 50 yd, struggling at 25 yd

Post by Grunt on 12/13/2011, 5:44 pm

I recently switched from a center hold to a sub-6. I shoot primarily indoors and the lighting has made it difficult to see the sight alignment against the bull. At times it was very difficult calling shots and when I did have one of those moments where I had laser-like focus on the front sight, the bull would fuzz out so much that I had no reference. I considered a 6 o'clock hold, but I figured that when the sights drifted vertically I'd be struggling with the same problem. So, a sub-6 seemed sensible to try.

After only two league matches I'm pretty pleased so far with long-line (which is where I am weak) and am about 3-4 points higher than my average long-line scores. I'd estimate that I hold around the 6 or 7 ring. The beauty is that I'm able to clearly see the sights and call shots much better. This alone is a confidence builder. Additionally, when I do get that crisp focus on the sight, I can still see the fuzzy bull down range. My hope is that over time I recondition my self to stop "mid-ranging" (as someone else put it) and focus more on front sight.

Now that said, I must say that sub-6 is not working for me on the short line. I find that there is too much room in the aiming area and it is difficult finding the same location consistently. So, I've decided to try a 6 o'clock hold at 25 to narrow the aiming area a bit. Fortunately, the lighting at 25 yards is better and I don't loose the front sight in the bull nearly as much as at 50. At worst, I'll go back to center-hold at 25 as this worked well for me.

I appreciate the comments on sub-6 by everyone. I'm not sure I would have ever considered it unless I found this thread. Thank you!!

Grunt

Grunt

Posts : 13
Join date : 2011-06-30

Back to top Go down

Re: Sub 6 hold

Post by CR10X on 12/17/2011, 8:48 am

Steve:

Thanks for reposting the reply and discussion from Allan on open sight holding. I'm missing a lot of those files from a hard drive failure and a failure to realize that a lot of those discussions deserved to be stored and filed. That was from a classic time on the old bullseye list when we had a lot of good shooters helping each other out. Lots of opinion, but lots of discussion.

On the subject, I've tried them all and outdoors, 6:00 work best for me, but indoors its sub 6.

Cecil Rhodes

CR10X

Posts : 765
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Sub 6 hold

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum