How to hold a Model 52 identically every time

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How to hold a Model 52 identically every time

Post by mikemyers on 7/6/2018, 3:36 pm

First topic message reminder :

Been reading and dry-firing.  The book "The Perfect Pistol Shot" suggests using the support hand partly below the gun, so it takes up the weight, and the shooting had behaves more like shooting from a rest.  Top left target started out good, 25 yards, Model 52, but the next five rounds went to a totally different location, top left.  Yuck.  On a whim, I thought my problem is not gripping the gun exactly the same each time.  So, top right and both bottom targets were only five rounds, so my hand would stay in the same place.  Better.  (Middle target was 25 rounds, just enjoying shooting the gun, trying to hold the gun the same way each time.

My question is, are there any tips on how to get your hands in exactly the same position?  I'm already feeding the gun from my left hand into my right hand.  I am 99% sure my trigger finger is in the identical spot.  I wonder how well I'm dealing with the curved back of the M-52, and whether I'm applying the identical amount of pressure every time. I expect the only cure is lots of dry firing.

As I see it, not much value in changing the sights any more, until my hands can do a better job of repeating my hold.
(This is easier on the Model 41 and also on my Salyer...  The Model 52 is so durn sensitive!!)

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Re: How to hold a Model 52 identically every time

Post by mikemyers on 7/7/2018, 4:15 pm

Magload wrote:Mike the tea cup was the method used many years ago and i don't know when your book was written but I expect back then.  Like every think else improvements have been made.  The method worked back then and there fore still would work know.  IT IS JUST NOT SAFE.   I had a 1911 in 45 blow the bottom right off the mag with all the hot gasses coming out the bottom of the grip.  I am glad they did come out the bottom as the grips held.  I still has a lot of power burns on my support hand but if it had been under the grip it would not have been petty.  I also had a bloody face and seen the sparks and what ever coming out the ejection port.  I will never know what caused this most everyone looking at the brass think it was a out of battery.  I have some good pictures of this I can provide of the case that failed, the next round in the mag with melted lead, and my bloody face.  I left a good blood trail to the bathroom.  Don
Actually, it's not a very old book.  It was published on July 14, 2015.   He is not recommending the "teacup hold", and specifically says that this not what he is talking about.  When I try to follow his advice, very little of my hand is under the gun - just enough to support the gun.  

If you have useful photos, maybe you can post a new thread here in the forum, along with advice on how we an avoid something like that.  I'm already afraid of reloading presses with a "pipe bomb" in front.  I'm also afraid of reloading problems.  I think I have eliminated any chance of them, first by buying a "Lockout Die", and just recently buy buying an "auto index" kit for my press.  I'd like to believe that if my gun did anything other than BANG when fired, I would have the sense to stop no matter what else was going on, and check that the barrel was clear.  I no longer collect brass at the range, unless it is mine.  If anything seems "wrong" with the brass, it goes in the dumpster.  Sure, please do post an article here, with lots of photos, but no need for anything with blood.....
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Re: How to hold a Model 52 identically every time

Post by mikemyers on 7/7/2018, 4:28 pm

Wobbley wrote:Try two shot drills at a timed fire pace.  Load 2, shoot 2, reload magazine, repeat.  Do this to develop a technique in getting your pistol into your hand the same.  Develop a feeling for grip tension.  At 25 yards all shots should be a big blob in the 10 ring.
Wobbley, can you please expand on what you wrote?  

At 25 yards all shots should be a big blob in the 10 ring.


How many weeks/months/years/decades might it take to accomplish this?  

Better yet, at a regular match that you might attend, if there were 100 shooters participating, what percentage of them do you think have the ability to do this "on demand", and not just "luck"?  

If that's not possible to answer, maybe this would be easier - with a B-8 target, and a distance of 25 yards, at what score does the target start to look good?  100 and 10x is perfect, but for ordinary people competing, not world champions, what score is beginning to sound "good"...  85 ?    90 ??   95 ??   98 ??
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Re: How to hold a Model 52 identically every time

Post by Axehandle on 7/7/2018, 5:18 pm

You guys write wonderful stuff....  First  a good score is relative to classification.  <85 is Marksman, 85-<90% Sharpshooter, 90-<95%, Expert, 95-<97% Master and 97-100% high Master.  All that in mind.. "good score" is classification dependent. 

The concern about grip for two hand shooting is not my cup of tea.  Can say that that if you are shooting from a rested position your technique can make a lot of difference.

Taking it to one handed shooting the better you shoot IMHO the more critical a consistent grip becomes. You must develop a routine to arrive at the same grip every time.  A Expert to Master class shooter can move his 25 yard from one side of the 10 ring to the other by NOT griping consistently.  I've personal seen first shots be far enough off to drive a sight adjustment for the first target.  The next target and the rest of the match I'm back to my original zero.

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Re: How to hold a Model 52 identically every time

Post by Axehandle on 7/7/2018, 5:22 pm

...And in your shooting literature you need the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit Pistol Marksmanship Training Guide.  You can buy it or download it free here.
http://www.saveourguns.com/Ar_Marks_Un_Pistol_Train_Guide.pdf

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Re: How to hold a Model 52 identically every time

Post by LenV on 7/7/2018, 5:35 pm

Axehandle wrote:...And in your shooting literature you need the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit Pistol Marksmanship Training Guide.  You can buy it or download it free here.
http://www.saveourguns.com/Ar_Marks_Un_Pistol_Train_Guide.pdf
+1 

Mike, I'm 68, over weight, don't get to shoot as much as I like and eyes are starting to dislike me. The answer to your question above is that a B-8 target starts to look good if it is a clean score. The closer they get to clean (98, 99) the more disgusted you get with yourself for the odd one out. Don't settle for less.
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Re: How to hold a Model 52 identically every time

Post by Wobbley on 7/7/2018, 7:45 pm

N
mikemyers wrote:
Wobbley wrote:Try two shot drills at a timed fire pace.  Load 2, shoot 2, reload magazine, repeat.  Do this to develop a technique in getting your pistol into your hand the same.  Develop a feeling for grip tension.  At 25 yards all shots should be a big blob in the 10 ring.
Wobbley, can you please expand on what you wrote?  

At 25 yards all shots should be a big blob in the 10 ring.


How many weeks/months/years/decades might it take to accomplish this?  

Better yet, at a regular match that you might attend, if there were 100 shooters participating, what percentage of them do you think have the ability to do this "on demand", and not just "luck"?  

If that's not possible to answer, maybe this would be easier - with a B-8 target, and a distance of 25 yards, at what score does the target start to look good?  100 and 10x is perfect, but for ordinary people competing, not world champions, what score is beginning to sound "good"...  85 ?    90 ??   95 ??   98 ??
If you shoot 30 shots slow fire on a B-8 Target they should all be 10s using a 52.  The gun is accurate enough to do it.  The variable is the shooter.  If you shoot 30 shots in 5 shot strings and the groups move around the 9 ring you haven’t got a consistent grip/stance/position.  (One reason to train on a 52 is to develop these skills.)  I’d take a 10 ring sized group, but only if it doesn’t move around.  It takes a set of skills not readily apparent to do this.  A HM, MA, and Expert should be able to do this.  A SS should do it one time out of 4 or 5 with most non-tens solid 9s.  A MK, probably not.  At least not consistently.  A 95 could be a group as big as 5.5 inches Which is a large accumulation of errors.
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Re: How to hold a Model 52 identically every time

Post by mikemyers on 7/7/2018, 11:05 pm

Axehandle wrote:You guys write wonderful stuff....  First  a good score is relative to classification.  <85 is Marksman, 85-<90% Sharpshooter, 90-<95%, Expert, 95-<97% Master and 97-100% high Master.  All that in mind.. "good score" is classification dependent........
To me, that's the right answer, to the wrong question, or vice versa.

Suppose it's some guy who has never shot a match before, and he fires off 10 rounds at a B-8 Target at 25 yards, and when we score his target, it's a 95.  Until Wobbley wrote "A 95 could be a group as big as 5.5 inches", I would have thought this guy is really shooting well.  OK, thanks to Wobbley, I'll cross the numerical total off my list of a potential criteria for good shooting.

LenV wrote "The answer to your question above is that a B-8 target starts to look good if it is a clean score."  That's real simple.  So to start to be "good", the shooter simply needs to clean the target.  On demand.  Every time.  I'll (grudgingly) accept that.  Or when nobody's looking, I'll change "good" into "good enough", but that's cheating....


Agreed with the comments on using just one hand.  Starting Monday, every day I get to the range, and every day I do dry fire, I will spend some time with my left hand in my pocket.  


.....and also to Wobbley, thanks for writing "...One reason to train on a 52 to develop these skills...."  I guess if a person can shoot a Model 52 well, he can shoot anything!  Good thing I love everything about this gun so much.  It's beautiful, it doesn't have much recoil, loading for it is not that difficult, and it's a challenge!
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Re: How to hold a Model 52 identically every time

Post by dronning on 7/7/2018, 11:35 pm

mikemyers wrote:Starting Monday, every day I get to the range, and every day I do dry fire, I will spend some time with my left hand in my pocket.  

To me you are trying to learn to swim by sticking your big toe in the water.  Quit dabbling and do.
Commit for the next 2 months you will only dry fire or train or practice one handed.  Do what ever it takes to become proficient.  Take more breaks if you need to, but stay committed, because you can do it.

On average it takes 30 days to make a new process part of your subconscious so make sure your shot process is solid and stick to it.
- Dave
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Re: How to hold a Model 52 identically every time

Post by Jack H on 7/8/2018, 12:39 am

dronning wrote:
mikemyers wrote:Starting Monday, every day I get to the range, and every day I do dry fire, I will spend some time with my left hand in my pocket.  

To me you are trying to learn to swim by sticking your big toe in the water.  Quit dabbling and do.
Commit for the next 2 months you will only dry fire or train or practice one handed.  Do what ever it takes to become proficient.  Take more breaks if you need to, but stay committed, because you can do it.

On average it takes 30 days to make a new process part of your subconscious so make sure your shot process is solid and stick to it.
- Dave

Well said.

One shot at a time.
Pick up gun, shoot gun, put gun down, evaluate...
If pleased, repeat.
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Re: How to hold a Model 52 identically every time

Post by mikemyers on 7/8/2018, 9:44 am

It's difficult for advice being given, without knowing a person's goal.  For me, my goal is not to start competing in Bullseye Matches around the country - what Jack wrote above is much closer to my "goal":

One shot at a time.       YES
Pick up any of my guns, shoot gun, put gun down, and evaluate/smile.
Repeat.

This is for all my guns, 22, 38, 45, pistols, revolvers, and preferably both one-handed and two-handed.  

If I go home from the range with a smile on my face, and "good" targets, I will be pleased.  Probably not ever "satisfied", but it will have been a pleasant way to spend the day.

(You guys post tons of helpful information, that I would never have learned from books and magazines.  In every aspect of shooting, you have had a huge influence in what I do, and how.  I don't reload the way I used to.  I don't grip the gun the way I used to.  What I knew about sighting before was incomplete.  My groupings at 25 yards are far better than what they used to be at 15 yards. Every time I get "stuck" at something, I learn how to deal with it here, and I am spending a LOT of my time in dry-firing when I'm home.  In many ways, I have reached and exceeded any goals I had along the way, but I want more.  So, Thank You!)
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