Bullseye stance

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Bullseye stance

Post by Olde Pilot on Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:38 pm

Noticed recently that top AMU shooters stances seemed to have changed from the "usual" 45 degree angle or so to 90 degrees to target. Is this something new or have I just not noticed it before? Seems contrary to the AMU manual.

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Re: Bullseye stance

Post by Tim:H11 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:49 pm

Let me ask one of the guys and I’ll let you know what he says.
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Re: Bullseye stance

Post by Tim:H11 on Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:33 pm

I was told it has to do with shoulder strength and range of motion having something to do with body composition. It was hard for me to understand. I shoot 45 degrees or so off. Greg Markowski fornexample stands 90 degrees and feet straight out right under his shoulders. But I’ll bet it’s from his international shooting days. I can’t say for sure.
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Re: Bullseye stance

Post by Wobbley on Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:54 pm

Probably from SCATT training.  Stand where you get the minimall arc ov movement.  For some it’s 45 for others it’s 90 or in between.
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Re: Bullseye stance

Post by willnewton on Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:16 pm

This guy may know something about it, but it’s probably his first day on the range.  You can tell because he holds for 20 seconds before the trigger falls.



lol!
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Re: Bullseye stance

Post by Toz35m on Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:42 pm

Wobbley wrote:Probably from SCATT training.  Stand where you get the minimall arc ov movement.  For some it’s 45 for others it’s 90 or in between.
If you have the tech that is where I would start.  

I do notice when you stand at 90 your body absorbs the recoil and you see more up and back and not up and left.  What I have noticed is you really need to be at 90 to see the full benefit of your body absorbing the recoil.  If not you will notice your shoulders will twist slightly anything off of 90.  

Everyone should try out different positions and see how it feels and see how you shoot.  You will need to try it out for more than 20 shots.  Ideally you should take 2-3 months to test changes like this to give your body time to adjust.
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Re: Bullseye stance

Post by Chris Miceli on Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:22 pm

Do what works best for you
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Re: Bullseye stance

Post by john bickar on Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:32 am

I shot the “traditional” 45° stance for the first 13 or so years of my career. I developed significant shoulder/upper back (rhomboid) problems in my early 20s.

I rebuilt my stance about 17 years ago to be much closer to 90°, and that combined with diligent PT has made the shoulder/rhomboid issues much more manageable.

My 2¢, backed by several hundred thousand rounds of experience.
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Re: Bullseye stance

Post by Allgoodhits on Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:42 am

I found 88 1/2 degrees works best for me ! No seriously ….

Shue: I was RO right behind him at a VA State Championships, and I watched most of his shots. I took the occasion to speak with him a couple days after the match, and he was generous enough to share some comments.

He did not start out at 90 degrees either. As do most great shooters, they speak to have spoken with other greats to fine tune their talents. He said, as does Sanderson & Henderson, you need to get behind the gun as much as possible, as much as comfortable for you. In this manner, for most, the recoil then does not cause the "body" to twist clockwise for righty, or counter clockwise for lefty. The recoil is more inline with the slide, straight back, or very close to straight back. This makes recovery quicker and more consistent.

Also notice, and I had conversation with Jon about this,  that he raises his shoulder of the shooting arm. This gives him an index that is repeatable, every shot. Similar to a spot weld of the cheek to the stock for rifle and shotgun shooters. According to Jonathan, this is a more repeatable position for him. He said this took months to develop for him.

Holding time? I also noticed that Shue does "hold" longer than most, before breaking the first shot. For SF it was in the range of 20 seconds, or he would abort. In TF, his first shot often broke around 4 seconds after targets faced. RF, it was closer to 3 seconds. His comments on that, were that he shoots "about" the same pace for TF and RF, although not really concerned about cadence. He lets dot or sights dictate what/when to shoot. He also said, that he vary first shots on TF/RF depending on how long it takes the target to settle down when faced, and how slow/fast they edge.

Something else I noticed. When he staples the repair centers, he does NOT simply staple the corners like 99.9999% of others. He "methodically" aligns the staples at 10, 2, 4 and 8 oclock in line with the scoring ring lines of the repair center. I asked him if he had sights on that stapler too.  Three things about this. One is that it keeps the corners from dog earing, thus causing a shadowed area which may catch your eye as a distraction. Two, he has good eyes, and sometimes depending on the light the staples stand out too much and can catch one's eye. Three, do everything methodical.

No surprise that he is such an exceptional shooter. My question, which he could not answer. How is that you are just so damn nice to everyone? I wish him and all more tens today, than the day before this week.

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Re: Bullseye stance

Post by Jon Eulette on Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:12 am

john bickar wrote:I shot the “traditional” 45° stance for the first 13 or so years of my career. I developed significant shoulder/upper back (rhomboid) problems in my early 20s.

I rebuilt my stance about 17 years ago to be much closer to 90°, and that combined with diligent PT has made the shoulder/rhomboid issues much more manageable.

My 2¢, backed by several hundred thousand rounds of experience.
So if you had to do it over again would you have started with the 90 degree stance first?
Jon
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Re: Bullseye stance

Post by john bickar on Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:26 am

Jon Eulette wrote:So if you had to do it over again would you have started with the 90 degree stance first?
Jon

Yes.
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Re: Bullseye stance

Post by chopper on Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:50 am

I'm probably not the one to comment here, as I'm still developing as a marksman working towards sharpshooter. I have a question about lining up, are you talking about the foot stance or body position to target.
 My feet are approximently shoulder width and 35 degrees from each other. My body position is about 60 degree to target, that's about where sights line up with bullseye, maybe a little adjustment with rear foot to fine tune.
 I can see the advantage to more 90 degree position as far as recoil recovery, but would'nt that cause a bit of imbalance on a windy day? Of course a EX,M or HM would have developed a lot more (fundamentals) and balance to prevent swaying in the wind.
 I still struggle with a 45s slow fire, but it's coming around this week with help from a trigger shoe.Getting older, so much to develope and learn. 
Thanks, Stan

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Re: Bullseye stance

Post by Jack H on Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:22 pm

Starting 1969, LtC Miller taught me to stand more at 90deg with my front toe turned to the target just a little.  and he emphasized relaxing my left shoulder.  I had a bad habit of being too tense. 
I have noticed through the years that muscles front and back of the shoulder can change and make any particular arm angle different.  I think it best to be able to use front and back muscles in a balance.  That's at 90deg. 
Odd that this discussion goes against what is said so many times about finding the so called NPA. 
Another thing is finding the sights lined up with the eye without undue wrist effort at a particular arm angle.  At 90deg I still have to cant left just a little.  At the 45deg area, I need much more cant left or a different wrist angle.  A strong grip with fingers back and thumb forward reduces my need to cant left.
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Re: Bullseye stance

Post by Wobbley on Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:30 pm

Your grip has an impact too.  If you align the pistol barrel with your forearm or not can change the stance angle.
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Re: Bullseye stance

Post by Toz35m on Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:46 pm

chopper wrote:I'm probably not the one to comment here, as I'm still developing as a marksman working towards sharpshooter. I have a question about lining up, are you talking about the foot stance or body position to target.
 My feet are approximently shoulder width and 35 degrees from each other. My body position is about 60 degree to target, that's about where sights line up with bullseye, maybe a little adjustment with rear foot to fine tune.
 I can see the advantage to more 90 degree position as far as recoil recovery, but would'nt that cause a bit of imbalance on a windy day? Of course a EX,M or HM would have developed a lot more (fundamentals) and balance to prevent swaying in the wind.
 I still struggle with a 45s slow fire, but it's coming around this week with help from a trigger shoe.Getting older, so much to develope and learn. 
Thanks, Stan

Foot stance/body position: In a way both.  In my case my feet are under my shoulders about 80deg to the line.  My left foot points forward and my right foot point to right a little bit.

Wind: Many people may not shoot on a regular basis where they are not blown around by the wind and may not have a method to deal with it.  i am included in this group.  All of the ranges I shoot at are protected well so.  I have studied what people do to deal with wind.  They change foot stances widen feet apart maybe point ties in.  If you read the rapid fire section of Pistol Shooter's Treasury this is talked about.  You may want to find a lower position to protect your arm from the wind more.
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Re: Bullseye stance

Post by willnewton on Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:35 pm

Allgoodhits wrote:Also notice, and I had conversation with Jon about this,  that he raises his shoulder of the shooting arm.

Beard Welded to Shoulder Pose.  I just lined my eye up on the end of his pistol and a spot in the background and waited for it move. Nope. My Ransom Rest is not as steady as his arm.

Holding time? I also noticed that Shue does "hold" longer than most, before breaking the first shot. For SF it was in the range of 20 seconds, or he would abort.

I was waiting for him to abort, after standing so long.  Watched him do it again and again.  I started counting, then decided I was counting wrong and got out the stopwatch.  20 seconds, 20 seconds, 20 seconds.  99 Slow fire? Done.

My question, which he could not answer. How is that you are just so damn nice to everyone?

This right here.  Never met him before that photo, but we had a few things in common we chatted about and he did not hesitate to talk to anyone that came up to him all day.  He finished with a 2661 that day and made it look easy as crossing the street.
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