Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

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Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by watercam on 7/11/2018, 10:18 am

I am told that 50yd. accuracy falls off after the first shot of .45acp. How wild do they get? At what point does it become 25yd. practice only?

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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by CR10X on 7/11/2018, 2:31 pm

Someone seems to just want your brass. Load and shoot your .45 brass. It will tell you when it's done (it will generally be when the cases start splitting.) Then start a new batch.

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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by cdrt on 7/11/2018, 4:09 pm

CR10X wrote:Someone seems to just want your brass.  Load and shoot your .45 brass.  It will tell you when it's done (it will generally be when the cases start splitting.)  Then start a new batch.
You beat me to it.  I think someone, as you suggested, just wants his brass cheap.
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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by watercam on 7/11/2018, 4:21 pm

But now I have no excuses for my crappy shooting Laughing

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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by Wobbley on 7/11/2018, 6:04 pm

watercam wrote:But now I have no excuses for my crappy shooting Laughing
Not if you shoot up your brass in a hurry.   Like 4 cycles per year (assuming you buy it by the thousand.)

SOME shooters load it 4 or 5 times then demote to the practice/25 yard bin.  There it lives forever it seems.
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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by Toz35m on 7/12/2018, 12:42 am

I should have kept the target but I shot a 1.5" 5 shot group with mixed brass which has been used dozens of times over 10 yrs on sandbags.  I know of others who have similar results on a ransom rest with mixed brass.
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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by willnewton on 7/12/2018, 6:03 am

I have shot 1.25” Ransom Rest 5-shot groups from Starline brass with unknown number of reloads through it, anywhere from 4-6 firings.

I kinda stopped worrying about brass after that, although I only use MY brass, not random range brass, just so I have some idea of what it has been through.

I have some old tired, beat down looking brass with a dozen plus reloads that I save for fouling barrels, letting friends shoot, or taking somewhere I might not be able to recover it, but I don’t hesitate to shoot it on the short line. I shoot them till they split or I lose them.
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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by 243winxb on 7/12/2018, 6:44 am

The longer 45 acp  brass fits the chamber better, more accurate.   Brass gets shorter as its fired.

I found seating lswc bullets into the rifling reduces end play and helps accurcy.  May not work with some chambers that are to long.  Best for slow fire  at 50 yards . May effect reliability in timed and rapid.

I set seating depth by controling head to bullet shoulder length.

Mixed brass does not produce the best accuracy when compared to  Starline brass.  Mixed brass can have   a bullet pull from 45 to over 100 pounds.
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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by Tim:H11 on 7/12/2018, 7:27 am

I started with once fired Winchester brass. I shoot it until it splits. The amount of accuracy lost by once fired vs “well used” won’t be seen from the hand in my opinion. Have the proper seat depth, crimp, and charge is more important. 45 ACP is a forgiving cartridge gento laod for. I don’t care to spend the extra coin on specific brass so I shoot what I can and it’s working out for me.
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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by watercam on 7/12/2018, 8:15 am

Outstanding comments guys, thank you!

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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by farmboy on 7/13/2018, 5:52 am

Toz35m wrote:I should have kept the target but I shot a 1.5" 5 shot group with mixed brass which has been used dozens of times over 10 yrs on sandbags.  I know of others who have similar results on a ransom rest with mixed brass.
This has been my experience. Even with cases with small splits, curled edge or some other case defect.  It the round chambers it shoots accurately.
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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by Slamfire on 8/14/2018, 9:59 pm

If you sprinkle Holy Water on once fired 45 ACP brass, the material properties will resurrect  back to new! 

If you believe this, you will see an improvement in your scores because the placebo effect is real, providing either positive or negative results, depending on your  belief system. 

An agnostic won’t see any change in group size, but in the afterlife, will burn in eternal flames. affraid

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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by Bob Fleming on 8/15/2018, 10:53 am

I am still using the same batch of mixed brass I started out with. It shoots much better now than when it was new! It came with me on my journey from Expert to High Master. Some gets lost in the grass or to brass rats and some gets added when I pick up abandoned brass. Nothing to stress over. I have found 5 or 6 pieces of cracked brass in this batch over the years and I think most of it was brass I picked up. I clean my brass and make a quick inspection. That is it.
With the super light loads I use I expect near infinite brass life. I do have an unusual die setup for my dillon 550. My sizer die is a (probably off spec) carbide 45 colt die that happened to size about 0.001" smaller on average than my custom expander/powder die expands the mouth. I don't recall which dillon expander/powder funnel die I used but probably a 45 colt or 45ACP. In a lathe I cut a Lyman M die type profile of a size that would allow 0.0005" to 0.001" expansion of the brass when I seated the Star swaged 185 grain hollow point bullets. I polished and case hardened the business end of this expander as hard as the steel would get. More expansion on seating the bullet does little good because it is near the elastic limits of the metal and over works the brass. 45ACP brass does not all have the same thickness of brass. Some is too heavy or too light to work well with my dies.

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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by oldsalt444 on 8/15/2018, 12:10 pm

If you think it gives you an edge, it will give you an edge.  There could be a very slight group improvement in using new/once fired brass, but not much, if any.  The .45 ACP is a low pressure round, made even lower with our target loads.  The brass just holds the vital components together.  It is your bullet that gives you about 80% of your accuracy, The powder gives you about 15%. That leaves about 5% for the case and primer.  I don't make a big deal over the brass as long as it safe and functions well.  When they split, I throw them away.  Being low pressure they last a very long time.  

Yes, the brass does shorten up, but it can only shorten so far.  Once it has reached the exact length of your gun's chamber, it can't get any shorter.
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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by S148 on 8/15/2018, 6:37 pm

oldsalt444 wrote: 
Yes, the brass does shorten up, but it can only shorten so far.  Once it has reached the exact length of your gun's chamber, it can't get any shorter.

I'm not sure the data at the link below is consistent with your statement.  Check it out and let us know.

http://www.massreloading.com/loading45ACP.html

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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by oldsalt444 on 8/15/2018, 8:00 pm

S148 wrote:
oldsalt444 wrote: 
Yes, the brass does shorten up, but it can only shorten so far.  Once it has reached the exact length of your gun's chamber, it can't get any shorter.

I'm not sure the data at the link below is consistent with your statement.  Check it out and let us know.

http://www.massreloading.com/loading45ACP.html

It appears to me that this was not a bullseye shooter using bullseye loads.  4.7 gr. Titegroup and a 230 gr. ball is a stiff load, so I would guess he used a stock gun with a 16-18 lb. recoil spring.  No doubt that contributed to the results he got. That's a lot more slamming than our typical 10-12 lb. springs, light target loads and heavy slides slowed down by slide mount optics and Bomar ribs.  What I can be certain of is that I haven't had any problems with too short cases or primer pockets.  I use military brass (WCC) cases that have been reloaded so many times that I lost count.
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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by S148 on 8/15/2018, 8:11 pm

oldsalt444 wrote:
S148 wrote:
oldsalt444 wrote: 
Yes, the brass does shorten up, but it can only shorten so far.  Once it has reached the exact length of your gun's chamber, it can't get any shorter.

I'm not sure the data at the link below is consistent with your statement.  Check it out and let us know.

http://www.massreloading.com/loading45ACP.html

It appears to me that this was not a bullseye shooter using bullseye loads.  4.7 gr. Titegroup and a 230 gr. ball is a stiff load, so I would guess he used a stock gun with a 16-18 lb. recoil spring.  No doubt that contributed to the results he got. That's a lot more slamming than our typical 10-12 lb. springs, light target loads and heavy slides slowed down by slide mount optics and Bomar ribs.  What I can be certain of is that I haven't had any problems with too short cases or primer pockets.  I use military brass (WCC) cases that have been reloaded so many times that I lost count.

But have you measured the length of the brass before it was used and after it has been used many, many times and measured the length of your chamber and determined that the brass never shrinks to a length shorter than your chamber?  Or was your comment just speculation?

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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by Bob Fleming on 8/16/2018, 10:26 am

The official SAAMI drawings, page 65 of a PDF downloaded from this page:
https://saami.org/technical-information/cartridge-chamber-drawings/
Shows a cartridge length to the mouth of a max of 0.898" +0.000"/-0.010".
SAAMI spec for the 45ACP chamber is 0.898" minimum to 0.920" max length.
This yields a headspace within SAAMI spec that varies from 0.000" out to 0.032".

Whoever wishes to claim that the 45ACP headspaces on the case mouth may do so all day long but don't expect everyone to believe it. In reality it usually headspaces either on the shoulder of the wadcutter bullet or on the extractor. Not on the where ever within the 32 thou.

SPECULATION:
The AMU load, an old one from 20 years ago that I know about, of 4.4 VV N-310 under a Nosler 185HP probably has brass trimmed specifically to match the AMU chambers which is why they see an accuracy degradation with fired brass.
I do not fully finish chamber my Kart barrels when I build a 1911 for myself. I leave them "short" at a minimum length. Unless I had to cut the hood quite a bit shorter they were good as shipped. I bet the AMU does something to make the headspace on the case mouth very precise.

ALL of the brand new brass I have measured started out shorter than the minimum chamber specs. Never seen 0.898" long brass.

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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by killswitch on 8/16/2018, 2:39 pm

oldsalt444 wrote:

Yes, the brass does shorten up, but it can only shorten so far.  Once it has reached the exact length of your gun's chamber, it can't get any shorter.
I don't understand this statement. SAAMI chamber is .898 to .920 and SAAMI case is .888 to .898
What do you mean "Once it has reached the exact length of your gun's chamber"?
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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by Jon Eulette on 8/16/2018, 4:01 pm

Most BE pistolsmiths Shoot for 0.905” headspace. Most lswc bullet shoulders engrave into the lead of the rifling thus artificially headspace off the bullet shoulder. The brass length is not a variable other than crimping consistency. Every time I’ve ransomed what I call crap ammo (any brass) I’ve gotten sub 2” groups at 50 yds from good BE pistols. So my personal opinion is spend more time shooting and training than reloading perfect reloads.
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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by oldsalt444 on 8/16/2018, 7:04 pm

killswitch wrote:
oldsalt444 wrote:

Yes, the brass does shorten up, but it can only shorten so far.  Once it has reached the exact length of your gun's chamber, it can't get any shorter.
I don't understand this statement. SAAMI chamber is .898 to .920 and SAAMI case is .888 to .898
What do you mean "Once it has reached the exact length of your gun's chamber"?
As has been pointed out, there's a big variance in both brass and chamber length.  Perhaps a gunsmith here can explain better, but I understand match barrels usually need to be "finish reamed" involving some lengthening of the chamber.  This happened to me with a Kart "E-Z Fit" barrel that I installed and thought was perfectly fine until I sent my gun to Dave Salyer for slide tightening.  Perhaps I filed too much off the hood (or not), but Dave had to do a finish ream.  I shot a lot of rounds through that barrel before it was sent to Dave, so apparently I was shooting a slightly short chamber.  But there weren't any problems and accuracy was good.  So it's possible to get longish brass and a slightly short chamber.
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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

Post by oldsalt444 on 8/16/2018, 7:46 pm

S148 wrote:
oldsalt444 wrote:
S148 wrote:
oldsalt444 wrote: 
Yes, the brass does shorten up, but it can only shorten so far.  Once it has reached the exact length of your gun's chamber, it can't get any shorter.

I'm not sure the data at the link below is consistent with your statement.  Check it out and let us know.

http://www.massreloading.com/loading45ACP.html

It appears to me that this was not a bullseye shooter using bullseye loads.  4.7 gr. Titegroup and a 230 gr. ball is a stiff load, so I would guess he used a stock gun with a 16-18 lb. recoil spring.  No doubt that contributed to the results he got. That's a lot more slamming than our typical 10-12 lb. springs, light target loads and heavy slides slowed down by slide mount optics and Bomar ribs.  What I can be certain of is that I haven't had any problems with too short cases or primer pockets.  I use military brass (WCC) cases that have been reloaded so many times that I lost count.

But have you measured the length of the brass before it was used and after it has been used many, many times and measured the length of your chamber and determined that the brass never shrinks to a length shorter than your chamber?  Or was your comment just speculation.  

I gave up on measuring 45 cases a long time ago.  It really doesn't make much, if any, difference.  Every gun will be different depending on things like hood to breech fit, friction, spring weight, barrel to slide fit, chamber tightness and other variables that could affect how much your brass gets squished.  I feel like we're splitting hairs here.  As John says, even crapola brass will shoot sub 2" @ 50 yd.
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Re: Accuracy Loss with Fired Brass

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