Advice requested - how to improve

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Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/14/2018, 12:40 am

First topic message reminder :

I had my brother stand next to me as I fired off five rounds from my Salyer.  He held my Canon camera set to capture a video of me and the gun.  This was shooting two-handed.  Eventually I'll have him film me shooting one handed.

While watching the video, I struggled to understand what was going on, so I slowed it down to 1/4 speed, so I could then play it back frame by frame and see both what I was doing, and what the gun was doing.

I've got lots of questions that I'm not going to ask.  If anyone can offer feedback on what I'm doing, I'd appreciate it.  The closest thing I've got to a "coach" is you guys. 

Ammo was Magnus, #801 I think, with what was supposed to be 4.0 grains of Bullseye powder.  




Video at normal speed:  https://youtu.be/_PBwIEVb6NE


Last edited by mikemyers on 7/14/2018, 12:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/21/2018, 8:46 am

'Keyholed' - Leaning - yeah, that jus doesn't feel comfortable for me.  I have no interest whatever in "tacticool" (other than thinking it's a cool word to remember).  Actually, other than for the video, I mostly don't notice the recoil, unless I'm shooting full rounds as bought from a store.  Speaking of that, in "The Pistol Shooter's Treasury" they recommended shooting a full box of hardball, as a cure for flinching.  It worked - by the time I got past half a box, my blinking seemed to be gone, along with my flinching.  I just got used to it, and after that I no longer "cared".  

Grip - every source I have read or been told tells me NOT to grip the gun that strongly.  The recommendation seems to be to grip the gun as strongly as one would grip a hammer.  In "The Perfect Pistol Shot" the author wrote about this at length.  Doug Koenig talked about it in the video he posted for Bullseye shooting.  My concern was that two years ago, the gun was rotating inside my hand.  Gripping a little harder helped, and the sharkskin grips I bought seem to have glued the gun to my hand.  The only way it will slip in my hands now, is if it tears off pieces of skin!   :-)

Bent arms - for me it feels best if there is a very small bend in my right arm, as you describe.  Essentially, the arm is "straight", but definitely not "locked".

Blinking - I used to blink before the shot.  With the Salyer, I'm obviously blinking after the shot.  I don't think I do this with a 22 or my revolver, but I'll make another video to find out for sure.


Regarding the targets, the one at the right with 12 holes started out awful, with the holes up high, and yes, I knew they were high as I shot them.  I notice my gun was "twitching" as I fired on an empty chamber.  So, after 25 or so rounds of dry fire, that stopped, and the holes went back down more like the 5 rounds in the other target.  (I never used to be able to "call my shots" - but thanks to feedback here, I think I have that working nicely.  Looking at the target only confirms what I already "know".)

Your last sentence - that bothers me.  I've always thought that if I could shoot any specific gun well, that would carry over to my other guns.  Leaving out 44 Magnums, after some practice rounds to get acclimated to a different gun, shouldn't someone  be able to shoot most of them to pretty much the same accuracy/precision ?


'Jack H', my take on what you wrote is to concentrate on just one thing at a time, and continue to make notes of what works better.  If my goal is to eventually put the holes in the 10-ring, I can actually see that happening.  If my goal is "one ragged hole", maybe by the time I get to my next life I'll be able to do that.   :-)

(There are only two things I am concentrating on now - sight picture/alignment, and not moving the gun when firing. )

(For reasons I can't understand, maybe because of the sight radius, it is SO much easier for me to line up the sights perfectly on my Model 28, than with any of my SA guns, even the ones with a dot.)
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by Wobbley on 7/21/2018, 9:47 am

I can shoot a 44 about as well as any other pistol.  But not for as long. Not so much from the recoil from the mass of the revolver.  My 25 is in the same boat.
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/21/2018, 10:05 am

I'm sure that this is obvious but, bullseye shooters fire with one hand. I would never ask any action pistol shooters for advise on firing single handed precision shots. I would track down some videos by rob leatham and the forums he would use.
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/21/2018, 10:38 am

Chris, I agree.  I've been dry firing one handed, and will see how that works out at the range next week, maybe Monday.

Yep, obvious, but I "trust" the information here more than most other sites.  Between this forum, The Pistol Shooter's Treasury", and "The Perfect Pistol Shot", I think I have a ton of good advice (but knowing and doing are not the same thing).  


Wobbley, that is SO true.  With my Salyer and with my Model 41, I dry fire first with a 1.5 pound wrist weight on each wrist, and then without.  When I take the weights off, the gun is SO light and easy to deal with.  I tried this yesterday with my Model 28 with a long barrel - for only half of one dry-firing session, I could use the weights, and then it got far too uncomfortable, so I finished the sessions just holding the gun.   What bugs me is that for as long as I could remember, shooting my Model 28 revolver always, I could do well enough (at 15 yards) to be satisfied.....   but when I switched to semi-auto, everything got much more difficult.  .....and when I almost feel good about the Salyer, then the Model 52 made me think I was back in the first grade.  

My current plan is to continue doing everything I'm doing, striving to improve, and ALSO start with the High Standard every time I go to the range, only firing it one handed.  I guess I should re-install the original one-handed custom grip.  That can be one of today's projects.


.....added later:  I guess I should concentrate on the Model 52.  If I can learn to do that reasonably well, everything else will be easy.  I think.
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by james r chapman on 7/21/2018, 11:10 am

Pick one.
Stick with one till you sort it out.
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/21/2018, 3:04 pm

james r chapman wrote:Pick one.
Stick with one till you sort it out.
I re-assembled my High Standard today with the original grips that came on it.  I will do just as you suggest for Bullseye Shooting, using only this one gun until when/if I ever get out of "grade school" with it.

I'm not going to give up shooting other guns two handed, and reloading, but I'll follow the recommendations here for this gun.  The scary thing is, it actually feels good in my right hand.  


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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by Jack H on 7/21/2018, 7:04 pm

Oh!  Kind of like one of mine. It is one of my favorites.  The slant grip is great for one hand
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/21/2018, 7:48 pm

Beautiful!  I see you've got the weight from the sight much further to the rear.  I have two barrels, a reconditioned one, with a mount that goes on top, and the Matchdot II that I removed from the Model 41.  I'll set that up the way you've got yours. which is how I had it on the S&W.   Yours looks brand new!  I've been asking in the rimfire central forums how to make the locking button a little easier to unlock.  

As to shooting mine, I'm going to try to do everything shown in this video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqFn9AU7les ...results won't be in the same solar system, but it's a good start.  Mine came with one magazine - I bought two more, but had to send one back, as it didn't work reliably.  If I get decent, I guess I will try to buy a third.

http://www.histandard.info/manuals/lpbpistols/0136D150R.pdf


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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/22/2018, 3:36 am

It's now 4am Sunday.  I woke up thinking about what happened yesterday, and I'm not sure if I should be happy or frustrated.

On the good side - I did get the High Standard back to how it was when I bought it, so it should be a suitable gun for starting one handed bullseye shooting.

Also on the good side, when I started my practice routine (used for holding drills, and then for dry fire), for a while I thought I could actually get a few holes reasonably close to a bullseye, which was impossible five months ago.  So all the practice with my simulated gun in India actually was useful.

On the bad side, by the time I got half way into my drill, my arm started to shake so badly I called it quits for a while.  After fifteen minutes of rest, it still shook when I held out the gun, so I guess I need to modify my drill.


Explanation - I use the app "Interval Timer" on my phone to control my practice sessions.  It's available for both iOS and Android.  I programmed it to start off with 10 seconds of getting ready time, then selected 10 sets of practice.  These include:
    One minute, fifteen seconds of "work", then
    One minute of rest.
All together it's roughly 13 minutes of "work time", and 10 minutes of "rest time", or 23 minutes total.

For two handed shooting, I was able to complete this holding my Model 41 or my Les Baer.  My hands shook at the end of each "work" cycle, but I got through the whole routine.  Eventually the hand shake diminished, so I started doing the first 5 'sets' wearing my 1.5 pound wrist weights.  By the time I finished 5 sets, it was getting really difficult to hold the gun without shaking, so I took the weights off and finished the drill without them - at which point my guns felt like they were made from plastic.  I think this worked out very well.  

I still follow the same timing now, but instead of "holding drills", I changed to dry-fire practice.  During the "work" session I'm going through a type of "shot process" dry firing the gun, with my hands in the proper place, etc, as I've learned in this forum.



Enough history - yesterday I tried the same thing one handed, simply holding out my arm holding the gun, doing my best Doug Koenig imitation, and planned to complete the whole drill.  I was amazed to find that early in the drill, after picking up the gun, I could have taken some shots that should have been "close", but all that came to an end after only 5 "sets", when my hand and gun started to shake uncontrollably.  I waited half an hour, but my hand was still shaky, so I stopped to reconsider how I'm doing this.

I haven't thought this through yet, but unless I come up with a better idea, I'll modify my program so it's only 30 seconds of holding the gun up, followed by the same one minute of rest - and that will be my new practice session, which as I did before, will really just be a holding drill for now.  I'm hoping that will build up my arm (singular) strength.  

(I used to do this drill several times every day.)

---------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I shouldn't be too surprised at how difficult it was.  All the weight that I'm used to supporting with two hands is now being supported by one hand.  Not only that, shooting one handed the gun is six inches further away from me than when I shoot two handed, so the gun is going to feel all that much heavier.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Keith Sanderson's ideas worked for me shooting two handed.  I'm hoping the same thing will happen now, shooting the gun from a Bullseye position (Doug Koenig's video).  




Question -- if anyone of you are still reading this thread....  If you pick up your gun and hold it at arm's length, how many minutes can you hold it before your gun starts to shake?  Or can you hold it out there as long as you want???   If so, how many months/years did it take to be able to do this?  Can you still do it now, or when you got older, did it become more difficult?
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by willnewton on 7/22/2018, 7:36 am

I think you need to differentiate holding up your arm for exercise vs. holding a gun to fire at a target.  It sounds like you are basing your self worth on how long you can hold your arm out for exercise. Yet most teaching will tell you, most folks have about ten seconds of hold in them before it starts to break down when holding the pistol.  Don’t compare and judge yourself against a twenty year old military shooter, unless you are one!  Don’t judge your shooting based on your weight lifting.

 You lift weights for a half hour and wonder why your hand shakes and you can’t hold a pistol steady after?  Sometimes, I think you should read your posts from the viewpoint that we read them.   Smile

I see that you are eager to learn every single thing.  This is much appreciated, because there are few that are willing to take the time to learn something that is not easy.  Yet this eagerness, in too much supply, can hinder you over the long haul.  You get a precious new gem of knowledge, then run out to quickly go try it, then report back.  You do that twenty times and you have tried twenty new things and made 100 posts about it.  Hey great, but what have you LEARNED?

The human brain loves novelty and stimulation.  It loves to try new things.  In your eagerness to absorb EVERYTHING, you are throwing yourself into analysis overload and the human mind, which is wired for addiction to new stimulus, is super happy about it and has no intentions on letting you rest as long as it can get a taste of that sweet info-crack.

The result is that you are chewing through ideas so fast, you are not taking time to LEARN only to TRY.  You post up your experience about trying new things, but there does not seem to be a lot of learning, just reactions about what new flavor of the day you have tried.

Learning occurs over months of practicing a SINGLE idea until it has become integrated enough that you do not need to consider it any longer.  

When you open a door, do you TRY it with your left hand, then your right hand, then standing on one foot, then doing it while singing?  No, you walk up and open the door.  There is no thought, no planning, no analysis.  You have LEARNED how to open a door.

You finally posted something last night that shows real learning, yet blew right through it analyzing some other shiny new thing you tried.

I could actually get a few holes reasonably close to a bullseye, which was impossible five months ago.  So all the practice with my simulated gun in India actually was useful

There you go Mike, five months.  That is how long it takes to learn and see results as the change you practice becomes integrated.  That is how long you need to focus before you begin to pass judgements on yourself.

Mike, you need to sit back and think on this amazing thing you did.  You trained yourself how to do the IMPOSSIBLE on command in only five months.  

Stop fretting so much over the trees my friend, because you are missing the forest!
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/22/2018, 8:33 am

willnewton wrote:........

I could actually get a few holes reasonably close to a bullseye, which was impossible five months ago.  So all the practice with my simulated gun in India actually was useful

There you go Mike, five months.  That is how long it takes to learn and see results as the change you practice becomes integrated.  That is how long you need to focus before you begin to pass judgements on yourself.

Mike, you need to sit back and think on this amazing thing you did.  You trained yourself how to do the IMPOSSIBLE on command in only five months.  

Stop fretting so much over the trees my friend, because you are missing the forest!
I will follow your advice.  I've had so many years in engineering design and computer programming, where everything had to be right, but no reason not to change now, especially as I'm doing this because I enjoy it, not because I have to.

I tried my new practice routine this morning, and all went well. The holes would have been reasonable, if not great.  The gun felt comfortable in my hand, almost like it became an extension of my arm.  Monday or Tuesday I'll get to do it at the range.  I'm not going to slack off on dry-fire, but in my mind, it's not even dry-fire - I'm picturing the bullets hitting where I want them to hit.   Shocked

Thank you.
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by SteveT on 7/22/2018, 11:41 am

Several years ago I couldn't find an inexpensive camera that could catch gun functionality, brass ejection and eyes blinking. There were a couple of options that could film at high frame rates, but the image quality was not good enough. I look forward to hearing your results. I haven't played with the video SW you mentioned, but I have used the freeware / open SW package Kinovea. You can tell the SW to follow a point and it will create traces similar to what you see in an electronic trainer (Rika, Skat etc.). I was trying to use it as a cheap trainer. It sort of worked.

You can't lock your wrist totally. You want it to be as stiff and firm as possible, but especially shooting larger caliber guns, the wrist / elbow will bend in recoil. The trick is training so they come back to the same position after recoil. I had a video of Brian Zins shooting a string of timed fire, but I can't find it. I did find these videos on You tube. In the first you can see the Judy Tant (59 seconds) clearly bends both wrist and elbow and both marine reserve shooters (1:44-1:47) wrists' are bent in recoil. In the second video you can sort of see Brian Zin's wrist breaking in recoil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GDtya_Sofk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKJ0cOkaVLs
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/22/2018, 1:29 pm

I don't think you'll ever find an inexpensive camera that can do anything "well".  Adequate, sure.  The big Nikons can do almost anything, with a high shutter speed, excellent resolution, a good sensor, and so on.  They also work well for video.  They're also expensive.  The Canon G7X Mk II Pro is "only" $650 or so.  I set it to what I thought was good enough, but from watching the ejected shells, I can see the need for a higher shutter speed.  More frames per second would help too.

The video software I mentioned, Final Cut Pro, is for the Mac.  It used to cost thousands of dollars, but Apple now sells it for around $300 or so.  It can do most everything/anything, but true professionals usually prefer Adobe Premiere, or Avid, which are priced for professionals - and in the case of Adobe, you can only "rent" the software now, which I refuse to do.  Whatever I get, I want to buy it once, rather than making payments for the rest of my life.

I needed to find an inexpensive video editor for the hospital in India.  After a lot of searching, I selected "Movavi".  It is cheap, runs on Windows and Mac, you get (got?) a big discount when ordering it, and apparently it can do slow motion video:

https://www.movavi.com/support/how-to/how-to-slow-down-video.html

You can get a free trial.  For what it sells for, it's a bargain.  

Not sure when I'll try my next video.  I'll probably set up my camera on a tripod, and film myself, for a test.  I will ask for permission to set up the camera a little in front of me, as I'm shooting, as someone requested earlier.

Another option might be a Go-Pro.  I don't know if it does slow motion or not, but it's a 4K video camera at a very affordable price.  I thought about mounting it on my helmet or hat, and shooting my gun and target as I am shooting...   may or may not be useful.
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/23/2018, 2:34 pm

If anyone is still even reading this thread.....

I got to the range very early.  Shot my Model 28 for half an hour or so, two handed.  Should have gone right to the High Standard.  
All at 25 yards.


Got out the High Standard and shot at my first target - the red dot was practically invisible, so I was just guessing where it was aimed, while getting used to it.  Replaced the two batteries in the Tasco sight, and the dot came alive.  Second target was better, but at least all the holes were in the target, not the backing board.  Shot at the left target shown below - was pleased to see the beginnings of a group.  Then shot at my last target, and that was more than I expected.

My first goal was to get all the holes on the B-8 target paper.
My second goal was to get them all close to the black bull.
My third goal was to eventually get them all within the 9-ring, which is what I often do using both hands.


Two thoughts... - when I was shooting at target #3 on the left, my hand was feeling tired, as if I was dry-firing for too long.  I didn't expect anything to get better, but when it came to the last target, the red dot was "vibrating", more so than wandering, and I tried to follow Dave Salyer's Area Aiming advice - if the dot was vibrating/dancing within the bull, I accepted that and tried to not mess it up with my trigger release.

My second thought, which probably sounds rather stupid, is that for me, shooting with one hand may be easier than with two, not harder.  By pretending I was Doug Koenig, and following his advice, the gun felt like an extension of my arm, not something I was "holding onto".  If the red dot got as stable as it was last night when dry firing, the results might have been more interesting.....

For my whole life, I have thought that shooting one handed was so much more difficult than two handed.  Now I'm not so sure.  I am totally sure that I need to continue doing my holding/dry-fire drills many times every day.

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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by LenV on 7/23/2018, 2:42 pm

Down 4 clicks, left 2
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by CR10X on 7/23/2018, 3:38 pm

Just a couple of observations. 

If you want to improve, start with setting an appropriate goal(s) for each training session.  Hint, it ain't about where the shots land on the paper.  Otherwise, range time can easily become practicing mediocrity through repetition. 

A number of important points have been made in previous posts which deserve some thought.  Just remember, when we start looking for excuses (or diversions), we've generally lost sight of what we were trying to do in the first place.

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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/23/2018, 6:48 pm

Thanks.

I'm meeting someone at the range tomorrow who was there last week shooting a High Standard.  He's been at Bullseye for 30 years or so.  Maybe he can show me things in person, that I'm not yet doing correctly.

They might not have been the most appropriate goals, but wrote up above what I considered the goals for today.  

I'm pretty sure I'm doing some things right - my body, and feet, and arms, and head, and grip are what I think Doug Koenig showed.  His hand is rock steady though - mine is more like Jello.  My current goal for when I'm practicing is to get my hand steady, and while my steadiness is now better, it needs more. 

One other thing - I think it was Ed Hall who wrote that one should concentrate on the good shots, not the bad ones.  I also read long ago that one should understand the reason for every shot that was not good, to eventually minimize them from happening again.  For most of the day I load one round, shoot, then find where the bullet hit.  I am doing MUCH better at knowing where the bullet is going to be.  If it's not where I wanted it to be, I try to figure out why.

Thanks to the composite Bullseye grips on my High Standard, my grip is always the same, along with my stance.  My hand just falls into place naturally.  My trigger control certainly needs work.  That, along with the red dot "vibrating" need to be dealt with.  If the "vibration" of the dot stays in the black, I figure if my trigger control improves, that's where the bullet will hit.

Willnewton wrote "most folks have about ten seconds of hold in them before it starts to break down when holding the pistol".   I had no idea!!!!!!  My practice sessions are to hold for 30 seconds.  I will change that.  


Back to "goals".  One of mine is to go home "happy" at the end of the day, not "frustrated".  I'm stubborn enough to want to return even when I'm frustrated, but I need to know I accomplished something.....
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/23/2018, 7:18 pm

mikemyers wrote:Thanks.

I'm meeting someone at the range tomorrow who was there last week shooting a High Standard.  He's been at Bullseye for 30 years or so.  Maybe he can show me things in person, that I'm not yet doing correctly.

They might not have been the most appropriate goals, but wrote up above what I considered the goals for today.  

I'm pretty sure I'm doing some things right - my body, and feet, and arms, and head, and grip are what I think Doug Koenig showed.  His hand is rock steady though - mine is more like Jello.  My current goal for when I'm practicing is to get my hand steady, and while my steadiness is now better, it needs more. 

One other thing - I think it was Ed Hall who wrote that one should concentrate on the good shots, not the bad ones.  I also read long ago that one should understand the reason for every shot that was not good, to eventually minimize them from happening again.  For most of the day I load one round, shoot, then find where the bullet hit.  I am doing MUCH better at knowing where the bullet is going to be.  If it's not where I wanted it to be, I try to figure out why.

Thanks to the composite Bullseye grips on my High Standard, my grip is always the same, along with my stance.  My hand just falls into place naturally.  My trigger control certainly needs work.  That, along with the red dot "vibrating" need to be dealt with.  If the "vibration" of the dot stays in the black, I figure if my trigger control improves, that's where the bullet will hit.

Willnewton wrote "most folks have about ten seconds of hold in them before it starts to break down when holding the pistol".   I had no idea!!!!!!  My practice sessions are to hold for 30 seconds.  I will change that.  


Back to "goals".  One of mine is to go home "happy" at the end of the day, not "frustrated".  I'm stubborn enough to want to return even when I'm frustrated, but I need to know I accomplished something.....
L


I know it’s been recommended a bunch, but I’ll echo it again. Go to a bullseye match. Watch and learn
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/23/2018, 7:32 pm

Unless I'm out of town in Toledo, I will be at the next match at Hollywood Rifle and Pistol Club on Sunday, August 26.  I plan to compete.  That's the best way I can think of to have a crash course in doing better.  Somehow these events seem to come up on days when I'm not available.  If it wasn't for family activities, I could have been at a match there yesterday.

Thanks for the reminder!

(I have been to two matches there.  Everyone else was competing.  I was just there to participate, shoot, and learn.  I finished 1/3 of the way down the list of 25 or so shooters.)
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/24/2018, 2:53 pm

LenV wrote:Down 4 clicks, left 2
Len, I put on the newer barrel I got from Alan Aronstein a few years back.  It came with a rail mount to attach, and I could then use my Matchdot II that was removed from my Model 41 when I mounted the Aimpoint.  Unless it's my imagination, the new barrel weighs more than the one I had before, which means it doesn't "wiggle" as fast.  Went to the range this morning and sighted it in.  What I thought was a perfect setting when on a rest, needed two more clicks to keep my groups centered once I started shooting.  I think you will approve (the centering).


When it came to shooting it (back at 25 yards), 'Wilnewton' wrote:  "most folks have about ten seconds of hold in them before it starts to break down when holding the pistol."  I was very surprised by this. Totally.  That being the case, I decided if I couldn't get off what I felt would be a reasonable shot in 10 seconds, I'd abort, lower the gun, and start over again after a break.  

I shot for a while, just getting used to the feel of the revised gun.  Then I shot these two targets.  Ignore holes in the white paper I used for adjusting the sights.  I would feel better if not for one round that I fired before I was ready to.  Stupid.


CR, I don't see what I did today as a "training session".  I did have two goals - get the sights centered, and to find out what I need to do next.  The fellow I was supposed to meet never did show up - maybe he'll be there tomorrow if I go again.


I may be as wrong about this as so many other things, but it seems to me that if I'm stubborn enough to continue shooting one handed, I need to exercise or practice enough to build up more strength in my right hand.  The groups in my photo accurately represent how much of an arc the red dot was moving in.  I need to reduce that.  I know I'll never get it perfectly steady, but I'm sure I can do better.

Today's targets were 8".  I will switch to 6" next time.  That, or go back to the NRA B-8 targets I usually use.
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/24/2018, 8:10 pm

willnewton wrote:.......I think you need to differentiate holding up your arm for exercise vs. holding a gun to fire at a target.  It sounds like you are basing your self worth on how long you can hold your arm out for exercise. Yet most teaching will tell you, most folks have about ten seconds of hold in them before it starts to break down when holding the pistol.  Don’t compare and judge yourself against a twenty year old military shooter, unless you are one!  Don’t judge your shooting based on your weight lifting.

 You lift weights for a half hour and wonder why your hand shakes and you can’t hold a pistol steady after?  Sometimes, I think you should read your posts from the viewpoint that we read them.   Smile .....
It may not be the best way of getting better at Bullseye Shooting, but three or four years ago I watched the Keith Sanderson's video, and that has shaped my life SO much over the years. 
[url=http://www.marvinstuart.com/firearm/Pistol/Precion Shooting/Training Material/Keith Sanderson Dry Fire Training.pdf]http://www.marvinstuart.com/firearm/Pistol/Precion%20Shooting/Training%20Material/Keith%20Sanderson%20Dry%20Fire%20Training.pdf[/url]

I knew and know how badly my hand would and does shake following Keith's advice.  The goal, as I saw it, was that by doing this long enough over time, the muscles would grow and eventually the shaking would be minimized, and then mostly go away.  



You're right that I want to do everything, from reloading, to Precision Shooting, to Black Powder Shooting.  


Years ago, I remember reading about so much about shooting targets (mostly in magazines) wishing I could do it, but never expecting to do it very well.
Now I read about so much (mostly here) and start thinking "I can to do that".
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by CR10X on 7/25/2018, 8:22 am

Ok one more time.  You might want to review the many topics under Fundamentals related to actually training rather than pursuing the internet for shinny baubles.  

 I think it was Ed Hall who wrote that one should concentrate on the good shots, not the bad ones.
 YES.

I also read long ago that one should understand the reason for every shot that was not good, to eventually minimize them from happening again.
NO.  Understand the good, ignore the not good.  Why waste time and brain cells learning "not good" instead of reinforcing "good"? 

I don't see what I did today as a "training session".

Either you are training or you are just practicing mediocrity. Every session should have a goal related to some part of the shot process or performance enhancement.  Only minimal amount of time should be spent on "things" like guns, cleaning, reloading,etc.  Maximize time spent on physical preparation, shot process, goal setting and review / diary.  Practice is just for practice (shooting a "match format") for score and documentation to see how the training on the individual parts is developing, making notes and observations for future training sessions.  Training is for training,  practice is not for training, but for making observations only. Matches are for shooting, not training or practice.  Simply the performance of the same shot process X number of times until the match is completed.  

Today's targets were 8".  I will switch to 6" next time.  That, or go back to the NRA B-8 targets I usually use.

Performance is to be measured by ability to call the shot, group size and number of complete / correct repetitions of each training exercise. All of which is to be recorded and reviewed.  The target is irrelevant, unimportant and basically a distraction.  (Especially those expensive and useless "shoot and see" targets that simply train the shooter to look at the target.  You should be using a lot of "blank" targets.  

As Will said:

The result is that you are chewing through ideas so fast, you are not taking time to LEARN only to TRY.  You post up your experience about trying new things, but there does not seem to be a lot of learning, just reactions about what new flavor of the day you have tried.

Learning occurs over months of practicing a SINGLE idea until it has become integrated enough that you do not need to consider it any longer.  

In order to maximize your return on training time, if you want to improve at shooting Precision (Bullseye) Pistol; I would suggest a change in approach.  If you want to just have fun, then continue as you were.  Its up to you.  I'm out of this one now. 

CR

PS:  If you are going to shoot 2 handed, remember that the grip is 75% non-dominant hand and only 25% dominant (trigger finger) hand.  Just ask Robbie, Chris or any other champion IPSC shooter.  That enables the trigger finger to operate more "freely".  

The issue is that this is completely different than learning to hold 100% with dominant hand and operate the trigger.  And why really good IPSC shooters can generally shoot the long line ok, (they know how to shoot accurate shots); but actually have more trouble adjusting to the short line for bullseye. (Trigger control with one hand).

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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/25/2018, 11:11 am

Thanks very much for what you've posted.  

I think an important thing to consider, which you mentioned towards the end of your post, is my goal.  The specific details of my goal are constantly changing, but the end result has always been to shoot better (not to win) with whatever gun I happen to be shooting with at the time.  I have always had only one person to compete with, myself.

...........and one year ago, when I first picked up one of my guns and saw what it felt like one handed, I realized it was probably impossible for me to ever do so.  That would have been the end of it, but for me being so stubborn, and reading so much here in this forum.
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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by CR10X on 7/26/2018, 5:40 am

(I'm going to assume that you have missed the point about goal(s) versus outcomes. And specifically, training goals.  If you did not, then please ignore my response as it will make no difference.)  

In order to "shoot better", one should set a training plan for each specific part of the shot process for each training session (live fire, dry fire or non-firing); a goal for that part; and measure the success of that specific training (not groups).  This is different that any overall goal(s).  (What really sounds like outcomes that you desire.)

Nothing was said about competition (winning).  That is a different subject. 

("to win" has nothing really to do with "competing".  It is merely the outcome for the best competitor.  And the best competitor - overall or within his class -  is the one that completed his shot process completely and correctly the most number of times for the conditions of that match. It's the best competitor that wins the match, not specifically the best "shooter".  Therefore the shooter is always competing with himself.)  

Goodbye.

CR

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Re: Advice requested - how to improve

Post by mikemyers on 7/26/2018, 7:16 am

I did have them all mixed together, true.


If I could re-start this discussion, I would be asking something similar to:  
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/s-w-41-bullseye-gun-too-heavy.645222/
I would then likely be following advice posted there, as my "training plan".


You wrote "In order to "shoot better", one should set a training plan for each specific part of the shot process for each training session (live fire, dry fire or non-firing); a goal for that part; and measure the success of that specific training...."  

Applying what you have been telling me, I first need a training plan for building up my hand/arm strength.  Everything else follows.
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