22 Conversion Problem

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22 Conversion Problem

Post by messenger on 7/21/2018, 7:55 am

I have a Nelson conversion on a Springfield frame. My problem is the first shot is always high. I had a Marvel that did the same thing on this frame. I had two others that did not. When I chamber the first round then eject it there will be a subtle mark on the front band that contacts the lands. Any ideas for a cure?  

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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by dronning on 7/21/2018, 8:09 am

Picture?

How are you releasing the slide - slide lock or sling shot.  Have you tried both?  Have you fired the first round then checked the second for the same type of mark?
- Dave
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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by messenger on 7/21/2018, 8:18 am

I tried taking a picture but my cell phone would not focus that close. It leaves a shiny scrape mark about 3/16" wide on the front of the first band. I do the slingshot method to chamber. It does it with the Nelson polymer mags and the GSG. I used to get around this with my Marvel by slowly chambering the round. The Nelson jams when I try doing it slow.

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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by james r chapman on 7/21/2018, 8:24 am

Do you close the slide before putting the mag in. Then rack the slide to chamber the first round?
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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/21/2018, 8:35 am

clean the lube off 5 bullets with alcohol , sharpie bullets and number on bottom of rim. Hand cycle to imitate a normally functions gun as best you can. Inspect bullets for deformity.

I'm gonna guess its something to do with they are feeding. Can always send it to an experienced smith to look it over.


Last edited by Chris Miceli on 7/21/2018, 8:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by messenger on 7/21/2018, 8:38 am

Only the first mag of the session. From that point on the slide locks back.

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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by messenger on 7/21/2018, 8:44 am

Chris Miceli wrote:clean the lube off 5 bullets, sharpie bullets and number on bottom of rim. Hand cycle to imitate a normally functions gun as best you can. Inspect bullets for deformity.

I'm gonna guess its something to do with they are feeding. Can always send it to an experienced smith to look it over.


This conversion is very reliable. It always feeds unless really dirty. It's only from hand cycling that it does the "mark". I'm heading to the range so I will try a few combinations of chambering.

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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/21/2018, 8:57 am

messenger wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:clean the lube off 5 bullets, sharpie bullets and number on bottom of rim. Hand cycle to imitate a normally functions gun as best you can. Inspect bullets for deformity.

I'm gonna guess its something to do with they are feeding. Can always send it to an experienced smith to look it over.


This conversion is very reliable. It always feeds unless really dirty. It's only from hand cycling that it does the "mark". I'm heading to the range so I will try a few combinations of chambering.

Bill

deformed bullets = accuracy loss.
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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by messenger on 7/21/2018, 1:52 pm

Just got back from the range. This does not make any sense to me but if I slingshot the slide I get a 12-1 o'clock 7. If I use the slide release I get an X. What's with that?

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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by kc.crawford.7 on 7/21/2018, 1:57 pm

Bill, don't argue with success!   lol!
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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by messenger on 7/21/2018, 2:04 pm

kc.crawford.7 wrote:Bill, don't argue with success!   lol!


Yeah, KC sometimes ignorance is bliss.

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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by Tim:H11 on 7/21/2018, 4:48 pm

Could it be a magazine? Have you tried other brands of magazines? I use a Nelson, with the supplied Nelson mags, and I load the first round by pushing down on the slide stop lever letting the gun do the work. Always. I’ve never had a problem. Not with feeding, not with deformed bullets, and not with a loss of accuracy due to the equipment (improper feeding).
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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by messenger on 7/21/2018, 5:46 pm

I have four polymer Nelson magazines and four metal GSG's. I had a problem with all of them when I slingshot the slide. When I use the slide release lever the problem goes away. i don't understand but am going to accept and move on.

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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by LenV on 7/21/2018, 11:34 pm

I thought I had it solved when I discovered that pushing down on the part of the magazine that raises the slide stop lowered the nose of the bullet. It lowers it quite a bit actually. However once you put a round in the magazine it no longer makes contact there. I was able to get marks on the nose three different ways and in three different spots. Slinging the slide or dropping the stop made a difference in how they were marked. However the number of rounds in the magazine and manufacture of the bullet made the most difference. I used a sharpie and marked some bullets to figure out what was going on. 1. There is a long mark across the top of most of the bullet caused by the passing of the bullet above it in the magazine. The more in the magazine the greater the spring pressure and the deeper the drag mark. There is of course no drag mark on the top bullet. 2.The difference I found with dropping or slinging is a shiny ring mark on the nose of the bullet where nose impacts the throat at what must be the wrong angle. The ring is right where the shoulder is on the bullet (name escapes me) Opinion: I think it is out of time with the design of the magazine.  3. Every bullet I ran thru the action had a half moon dimple in the right side of the nose. I first thought this was caused by the magazine being too high or too low ( testing proved that wrong). It was only after I marked the bullets orientation in the magazine that I realized that the divit was in the side. Here is where brand made the biggest difference. Yep, it was the extractor. Thin rimmed bullets had smaller dimples then thick rimmed ones. All I tested left some mark. Apparently the extractor is pulling the nose to the right and causing it to hit the very thin spot on the side of the barrel where the extractor fits into when action is closed. I actually had quite a bit of lead shavings in there.
  The fix: 1. No fix for bullet dragging across. 2. Drop slide with slide stop. 3. Change ammo or adjust extractor.
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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by messenger on 7/22/2018, 7:07 am

Thank you for your diligence with this problem. I noticed a more pronounced problem with Agiula ammo over CCI. Since the problem goes away with using the slide release I'm not going to mess with the extracter. I'd probably create a new problem. Thanks again Len.

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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by messenger on 7/22/2018, 4:16 pm

I went to the range today with a grin on my face knowing my first round high problem had been solved. Loaded up a couple mags with anticipation of a clean target, pushed the slide release, bang! What is this? A 12 o'clock 7. What the *&^%$#@! No matter what I did first shot was high. Even loading one round in the mag and releasing the slide lock resulted the same high shot. I will have to send this thing to a Smith. I am throwing in the towel.

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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by james r chapman on 7/22/2018, 4:32 pm

Why don't you try calling Larry.
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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by messenger on 7/22/2018, 5:00 pm

james r chapman wrote:Why don't you try calling Larry.


Good idea.

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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by Deerspy on 7/23/2018, 4:45 pm

I have had the same problem plus slide not going all the way forward and it looks like it is catching on rim of case all most makes me think cut out in face of slide is not lined up with bore in barrel, i am sending back to Larry after talking to him.

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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by Jon Eulette on 7/23/2018, 5:12 pm

In many cases the extractor spring tension is enough to keep slide partially out of battery. The extractor tip/nose pushes against the extractor relief notch in the barrel. Recoil spring weight plays a role in how hard the slide is pushed against the barrel. I haven’t done it on a conversion, but I have trimmed down the extractor length to compensate for the extractor pushing against the barrel.
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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by messenger on 7/23/2018, 5:58 pm

I might try the conversion on a different lower frame. I will probably let someone that knows a lot more than me tinker with it. I do appreciate all the responses. Thanks guys!

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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by Jack H on 7/23/2018, 8:53 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:In many cases the extractor spring tension is enough to keep slide partially out of battery. The extractor tip/nose pushes against the extractor relief notch in the barrel. Recoil spring weight plays a role in how hard the slide is pushed against the barrel. I haven’t done it on a conversion, but I have trimmed down the extractor length to compensate for the extractor pushing against the barrel.
Jon

I saw this on my Sig 220 conversion.  I clipped a couple coils off of the extractor spring, and the slide then closed all the way.
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Ditto

Post by rawilson on 7/24/2018, 7:23 am

I'm not a regular reader of the forum, but a friend pointed me to this thread.  I have been having this same problem on my Nelson. The first shot in a session will quite often be a 7 (or 6) at 1 or 2 o'clock.  First shot out of the first magazine. After that it settles down and is on call.  I always close the slide, dry fire, load a magazine, slingshot the slide, then sight and shoot.  First shot of a 900 - often off call and high-right. The other 89 shots are my problem. I'm shooting open sights, so I haven't ruled out psychological or physiological issues. Never the less, this has been quite consistent since I got the upper (I can't quite say that with confidence because it took me a while to notice the pattern).  I talked to Larry about it at Perry in 2017 and again this year - no real clues.  The other mitigating factor is I home-smithed a BoMar rib with adjustable/extended front sight onto the upper.  I'm not sure whether the mechanical attachment of the extended front sight is causing or contributing to the experience. Hence, I bought a new combo rib to put back on the gun to see if things improve. Thanks for some of the other ideas!

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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

Post by james r chapman on 7/24/2018, 8:52 am

I'm surmising that only the first shot of 90 shots would be something other than magazine/gun....
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Re: 22 Conversion Problem

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