1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

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1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by GerhardG on 7/30/2018, 9:37 pm

Greetings,
 New to Bullseye. Shooting and reloading since the 80's.
 Currently using a Ruger MK IV Competition trcked up with Volquartzen guts, and Ultra dot. 25 yd scoring 260 low to 293 high 
Colt 1911 Early IPSC model Combat Government modified with adj Millet Rear and high vis front. Stock barrel with split collet bushing, Trigger upgrade, but stock all else.

My reloads Lasercast 200 gr  SWC with Bullseye from 4gr to much higher. Scores Suck 170 avg 25 yd

Considering a new 1911 and ultra dot, but do I really need a wadcutter pistol, such as an RRA $2600 
What makes a Wadcutter pistol so much different?? 

Perhaps if there is no significant difference I'll upgrade my Colt with Kart/Bar to barrel/bushing and more???

What do you think I should do???

Thank you in advance
Mr. G Tool & Die Maker


Last edited by GerhardG on 7/30/2018, 9:55 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo and more info)
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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by noproblem on 7/30/2018, 10:54 pm

That Colt should be more than able to shoot high 280s . I would bench rest the Colt @25 yards and see how it shoots . I bet you get a 2-3 or less grouping. If that happens then the gun is fine . Additionally i would lower your bullseye load to 3.8 gr and see how accurate that load it .

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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/31/2018, 4:13 am

To dumb it down a lot Hardball Guns Cmp service pistol require iron sights and at one time were required to have gi grip safeties. Plus you had to use 230ball issued ammo. Later it changed safe reloads 230 were alllowed.

Now hardball Guns can be configured in pretty much any fashion and caliber. Ammo Is required to jacketed.

Only major difference from a modern day wadgun and hardball gun is optics. Yes you can shoot nra precision pistol aka bullseye with iron sights and lead ammunition. The Cmp require irons and jacketed ammo.

As for requiring a certain gun. The 10 ring at 50 yards is ~ 3” the X ring ~ 1.5”. Having a combination of gun and anmo that can put them all in the X , leaves only the human factor.

Also remember the trigger is your input to the gun, so you want it to be ideal for you. You might like a different length of trigger or  feel

Where are you located ?  Possible someone near you can fixture test your gun for accuracy. Or can assist with testing off a bench or something


Last edited by Chris Miceli on 7/31/2018, 8:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by cdrt on 7/31/2018, 7:03 am

Chris, the rule changed last year for CMP Service Pistol ammo:
4.4.2 Pistol Ammunition
a) Service Pistol. Service Pistol competitors may use any safe ammunition that is loaded with metal-jacketed or metal-plated bullets. Non-jacketed, wad-cutter or lead bullets may not be used.
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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/31/2018, 8:01 am

cdrt wrote:Chris, the rule changed last year for CMP Service Pistol ammo:
4.4.2 Pistol Ammunition
a) Service Pistol. Service Pistol competitors may use any safe ammunition that is loaded with metal-jacketed or metal-plated bullets. Non-jacketed, wad-cutter or lead bullets may not be used.

No ones gonna shoot plated bullets... well anyone who wants to win anything
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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by Wobbley on 7/31/2018, 9:51 am

The very low scores with the 1911 you have is far more likely to be an adverse reaction to the recoil.  Get a couple hundred rounds of 230 FMJ ammo and shoot that for a while.  Just on a target back.  No more than 60 rounds per session.  All slow fire.  Learn to grip the gun hard but not white knuckle hard.  Then create a bunch of reloads with 3.8 to 4.2 Bullseye and your 200 grain bullets and shoot those.  

Get the USMC training manual/workbook and work through that.  

As for getting a new pistol, my suggestion is to watch the Commercial Row section here.  There are some very good guns built by good smiths going for $1000-1500.
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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by GerhardG on 7/31/2018, 12:24 pm

Gentlemen,

 Thank you for the advise to get me on track.

 I am glad to understand the differences with Wadguns, Hardball and reg 1911's. 
The advise given is what I shall follow thru on.

Bench my Bullseye loads starting at 3.6 gr for 200 gr SWC.
Also will go to 230 gr FMJ and follow through on the recoil  then drop over to the bullseye loads starting from the bench rest.

I suspect the recoil and trigger is at play especially going from 22 to 45. 

The low scores with the 45 where full house loads not bullseye loads. I suspect my hold with Irons should also change to the 6 o'clock hold.

Hope to climb out of the hole I fell into!
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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by cdrt on 7/31/2018, 1:40 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:
cdrt wrote:Chris, the rule changed last year for CMP Service Pistol ammo:
4.4.2 Pistol Ammunition
a) Service Pistol. Service Pistol competitors may use any safe ammunition that is loaded with metal-jacketed or metal-plated bullets. Non-jacketed, wad-cutter or lead bullets may not be used.
No ones gonna shoot plated bullets... well anyone who wants to win anything
Yeah, I know, just wanted the correct info out there for the newbie.
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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by jglenn21 on 7/31/2018, 3:14 pm

The Speer 185 metal clad SWC bullet might just surprise you. At least at the short line. Their plated bullets are different
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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by dev6682 on 7/31/2018, 3:53 pm

What’s wrong with plated bullets??

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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by Wobbley on 7/31/2018, 4:04 pm

dev6682 wrote:What’s wrong with plated bullets??
It’s the way they are made.  Some manufacturers just plate a slug of formed lead alloy and diameters and plating thicknesses are uneven.  Ok for shooting at “combat” courses, but not good enough for us.  Some do a better job and plate twice with a restrike at the very end to make the bulletproof round.  As noted Speer has this figured out.  Others don’t.
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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by GerhardG on 7/31/2018, 5:56 pm

Scores count!

 I found 400 rounds of the Speer 185 gr SWC they are on the way. Meanwhile, will crank out more reloads with the 200 gr SWC Lasercast at 3.6, 3.8, 4.0 4.2, 4.4, and 4.6 gr. and will bench those. Bore snaking as I go. Thinking of going with the Wolf 14lb. spring then back to 18lb. for the 230 gr.  FMJ one hand for recoil adjustment.


All advice so far has been very welcome. Will go to the range and implement the advice given prior to a match on Saturday.


Last edited by GerhardG on 7/31/2018, 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo)
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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by GerhardG on 7/31/2018, 6:06 pm

Wobbley,
 Thanks for that. I considered running up to Camp Perry for the Commercial row but time is sadly to tight for me.
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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by Wobbley on 7/31/2018, 8:08 pm

You’re welcome.

There’s a Wadgun with optic for sale on commercial row built by a decent smith but not a big name smith.  http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t10123-wts-wad-gun-with-1-ultra-dot-and-gun-box

It’s an unknown as there is no target and is probably (very) old school build which have their own issues, but it was shot happily by the previous owner, so who knows?  Might be worth a shot?.
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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by cdrt on 7/31/2018, 9:19 pm

Wobbley wrote:You’re welcome.

There’s a Wadgun with optic for sale on commercial row built by a decent smith but not a big name smith.  http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t10123-wts-wad-gun-with-1-ultra-dot-and-gun-box
It’s an unknown as there is no target and is probably (very) old school build which have their own issues, but it was shot happily by the previous owner, so who knows?  Might be worth a shot?.
I got all my Leg points with a Buddy Chapman built 1911A1.  After over 7700 rounds it still shoots.  I broke 270 with it at OKC a couple of years ago.  Buddy is still around, but he is not working on guns anymore.  I have a Model 41 he worked on, as well.
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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by GerhardG on 7/31/2018, 9:50 pm

Folks,
I will see how things unfold before I go for another pistol.
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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by dev6682 on 8/1/2018, 8:38 am

Wobbley wrote:
dev6682 wrote:What’s wrong with plated bullets??
It’s the way they are made.  Some manufacturers just plate a slug of formed lead alloy and diameters and plating thicknesses are uneven.  Ok for shooting at “combat” courses, but not good enough for us.  Some do a better job and plate twice with a restrike at the very end to make the bulletproof round.  As noted Speer has this figured out.  Others don’t.
Thanks! That makes sense. I have a few thousand plated bullets yet to reload, but at least they're the double-struck variety.

What do people shoot for hardball? 230 gr FMJ-RN?

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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by zanemoseley on 8/1/2018, 8:54 am

You'll see a lot of 185gr HP jacketed.

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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by Jon Eulette on 8/1/2018, 9:32 am

I still use jacketed 230 gr ball loaded 4.0 gr BE got both LL & SL with very good success. Mild and always feeds;)
You can buy the bullets cheap; I see them on sale all the time.
Jon
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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by cdrt on 8/1/2018, 3:42 pm

Back when I was chasing leg points, all you could shoot was 230 grain jacketed round nose.  I was using 4.5 grains of Bullseye, which was less than the original military load of 5 grains of Bullseye.  Since then, I've scaled it back to Jon's load of 4.0 grains and I use that load for the as-issued match at the CMP Games events.  The last time I shot a leg match, I used the 185 grain JHP bullet, but my leg gun does not feed them reliably, so if I shoot any future leg matches, it will be with the 4.0 load and the 230 grain bullet.
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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by TonyT on 8/15/2018, 9:02 am

For 25 yars I found that 3.8 gr. HS-700X behind the 185 gr LSWCHP and Rem 2 1/2 provided extremely consistent velocities over several decades at ca. 710 fps. About as much recoil as I could consistently tolerate. All of our local bullseye shooting was done at either 50 ft or 25 yards.

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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by Aufidius on 8/22/2018, 6:51 pm

jglenn21 wrote:The Speer 185 metal clad SWC bullet might just surprise you. At least at the short line. Their plated bullets are different

+1

These are really good bullets- not at all like the mormon makes, Berry, Extreme, etc. Those are good 7 yard bullets, for sure, but Speer takes it to the next level.

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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

Post by sjs on 8/22/2018, 6:58 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:I still use jacketed 230 gr ball loaded 4.0 gr BE got both LL & SL with very good success. Mild and always feeds;)
You can buy the bullets cheap; I see them on sale all the time.
Jon

Jon, what brand are those 230 gr ball bullets?

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Re: 1911, Wadgun, and Hardball

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