Coaching tip

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

Coaching tip

Post by mspingeld on 8/3/2018, 9:53 am

A friend recommended a book, The Inner Game of Tennis. I’m getting a lot out of it.
 
Here’s one lesson: Be nice to yourself!
 
Have you ever said to yourself “I can’t shoot rapid fire” or “Why can’t I keep them in the black?” or, even worse “I suck at” this or that? I know I have.
 
Don’t do that! If you were coaching a newbie would you tell him “you can’t shoot rapid fire” or “you can’t keep them in the black” or, even worse “you suck at” this or that?
 
Of course you wouldn’t.
 
When analyzing a shot or string, observe what went right, or what needs work, but leave the judgement out of it. Talking yourself down is counter-productive. You’ve shot good shots and strings. You know you can do it. Some days will be better than others. Stay calm. Coach yourself like you’d coach a friend.
 
(also, I do recommend the book)

mspingeld

Posts : 340
Join date : 2014-04-19
Age : 58
Location : New Jersey

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by dronning on 8/3/2018, 10:21 am

All great advice. 
When you analyze what you did on a shot you should spend the most time on that perfect X a little less on a 10 and almost none on everything else. Unfortunately we often do just the opposite. 

I think it was Lanny Bassham that said "Trying to analyze a bad shot to improve your shooting is like trying to figure out a math problem by looking at all the wrong ways to do it, it's a waste of time!" 

First figure out the right way to do something then figure out how to repeat it or make it easier to repeat.
- Dave
avatar
dronning

Posts : 1765
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 64
Location : Lakeville, MN

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by SteveT on 8/3/2018, 12:44 pm

Thanks great advice. I'm going to look for that book.

One of my favorite Bullseye books is "Golf is Not a Game of Perfect"
avatar
SteveT

Posts : 297
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Illinois

https://sites.google.com/site/sdturner/shooting

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by Mike38 on 8/3/2018, 4:49 pm

Great advice. Just last Saturday I focused on some rapid fire strings with my .22. I commonly train with solid black bullseyes without scoring rings. But this time I used regular repair centers. First target was something like an 84, 4 or 5 shots out in the 8 ring. But, there was one shot in the X ring that blew out the intersection of the letter X. For whatever reason, I focused on that one shot, it brought a smile to my face. It doesn't get any more perfect than hitting the intersection of the X on a target. My next rapid fire target was a 98. Smile  Now I'm going to get a bunch of those 98's at my next match. I just know it.
avatar
Mike38

Posts : 228
Join date : 2016-09-15
Location : Illinois

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by bruce martindale on 8/3/2018, 4:56 pm

Read Bullseye Mind for one, and with winning in mind by Lenny Basham. You can't afford the luxury of a negative thought.

bruce martindale

Posts : 74
Join date : 2011-07-29
Location : Upstate NY

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by SteveT on 8/3/2018, 5:22 pm

bruce martindale wrote:Read Bullseye Mind for one, and with winning in mind by Lenny Basham. You can't afford the luxury of a negative thought.
+1
avatar
SteveT

Posts : 297
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Illinois

https://sites.google.com/site/sdturner/shooting

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by TomH_pa on 8/3/2018, 9:28 pm

Another vote for he tennis book.
I found the section where he talks about changing habits by forming a new "groove" in your memory
helpful

TomH_pa

Posts : 46
Join date : 2017-03-17

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by sbtzc on 8/3/2018, 9:32 pm

Remember, this is supposed to be fun!!!   Wink
avatar
sbtzc

Posts : 48
Join date : 2013-05-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by dronning on 8/3/2018, 10:25 pm

sbtzc wrote:Remember, this is supposed to be fun!!!   Wink
What's more fun than shooting a 100-10X!!
avatar
dronning

Posts : 1765
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 64
Location : Lakeville, MN

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by Ed Hall on 8/4/2018, 8:48 am

dronning wrote:
sbtzc wrote:Remember, this is supposed to be fun!!!   Wink
What's more fun than shooting a 100-10X!!
Shooting two?!?

Ed Hall

Posts : 559
Join date : 2012-09-10
Location : Adirondack Mountains

http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by dronning on 8/4/2018, 9:31 am

Ed Hall wrote:
dronning wrote:
sbtzc wrote:Remember, this is supposed to be fun!!!   Wink
What's more fun than shooting a 100-10X!!
Shooting two?!?
+1 lol!
avatar
dronning

Posts : 1765
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 64
Location : Lakeville, MN

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by mikemyers on 8/10/2018, 6:42 pm

I will probably be shot for saying this, but I disagree.  Not because I am better or worse at this than anyone else, but because it's not realistic to me in the real world as I see it.

What I do accept as a good way of determining how capable I am, is is what is explained here:
     http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/accuracy/accuracy.html

Consider a shooter who isn't that great, and who is shooting five inch groups at 25 yards.  Of ten shots he takes, one happens to hit the X, and the rest are off one way or another.  Assuming his group is clustered around a spot several inches away from the X, maybe not on purpose, but all his shots were "aimed" at the wrong place, the fact that one of them was so far off it hit the X is not something to be excited about.

In my opinion, if you fired off 10, or 25, or 100 shots, and the calculations at the above website state that 90% of your shots are going into a circle of 5.28" diameter, the way you really know what this means is if the calculations show a decrease in that diameter on subsequent visits to the range.

================================

I used to be very involved in radio control car racing.  When I started out, and even when I got better, I got into crashes with the boards on either side of the track.  The way I fixed that was to figure out what I did wrong, that caused the crash, and learn to do things differently.  The crashes became fewer and fewer.  Also, by constantly pushing to go faster, I learned what the "limits" were, and avoided going over them in the future.  The key to all this back then wasn't a CEP calculation - it was my lap times, which I plotted out on graph paper.  The goal wasn't to get the lowest lap times - the goal was to get consistent lap times, lap after lap.  Once I accomplished that, I started to learn how to do better.  The key to doing better was to be smooth and consistent, NOT to go faster.  Or as I used to tell people, "slower is faster".

================================

I fully expect that if I were to ask 'droning' to watch me and comment, instead of telling me what I'm doing right, he would suggest what I might change to do better - which would be FAR more helpful to me, in my opinion.


Oh well, just my thoughts about this.  I usually don't go home from the range thinking how much fun it was - I go home either feeling satisfied, or not. ....and if I'm not satisfied, I usually have an idea of what to change net time - or to ask for advice.


Sorry for the interruption......
avatar
mikemyers

Posts : 1081
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 74
Location : South Florida, and India

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by CR10X on 8/10/2018, 7:29 pm

A coach should never tell you what you are doing wrong. He should be coaching to the correct or better way and creating a positive mental picture. Coaching should not be creating a mental image of something negative to be corrected. That's just creating more work.

It's harder to get better when someone is telling you what is wrong rather than helping you picture what is right.

CR

CR10X

Posts : 742
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by Tim:H11 on 8/10/2018, 8:02 pm

I’m biased because I only ever had one real coach and mentor that worked directly with me on the line - though I learned a little from where ever I could. 

He told me recently that the best thing I had going for me wasn’t any amount of talent or skill I carried into this sort, it wasn’t the advantage of having someone help me with cost from time to time, and it wasn’t the long hours I put into this sport practicing and training. It was having someone on my side the whole way knowing what I was capable of when I doubted myself and instilling confidence in me.

The first time I won the NMLRA nationals, I was down a bad amount of points and needed a good run in the revolver agg. I was down in the dumps on a bench resting and along came my mentor. Asked me what was wrong. Told him it’s over. He relied “oh it’s jot over yet” and laughed. “You’ve still got work to do, and a lot of by the looks of things.” Grinned he did. This just irritated me. I was facing an uphill battle. Finally he got fed up with my attitude and told me I could win this thing if I just got my head out of my a$$. He had never spoken to me like that before. I got up and in a “I’ll show you” attitude went to work. Though he stopped by the line before the relay started and told me to calm down and shoot my own game. Nobody else’s. I did my job. Maintained correct sight picture until the bullet was out the end of the barrel. And I won. 

And still past that he’s always been there with nothing but positive encouragement. Always “you’re capable of better” or “others try, you succeed”. And while spotting my 50 yarders he’ll say after a bad shot, “that’s alright, ten out and you're still good”. 

Never a discussion on what I did wrong. Always a discussion on what to try or change if need be and to keep my chin up and press on. 

Having some one there rooting for you when you think you’re done, is a hell of a piece of back up equipment.
avatar
Tim:H11

Posts : 1324
Join date : 2015-11-04
Age : 30
Location : Columba, TN

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by dronning on 8/11/2018, 6:08 am

mikemyers wrote:
I fully expect that if I were to ask 'droning' to watch me and comment, instead of telling me what I'm doing right, he would suggest what I might change to do better - which would be FAR more helpful to me, in my opinion.
Actually Mike if you asked me to watch and comment the first thing I would ask would be to see your Performance Journal.  You know that notebook where you keep your goals, your shot process and the notes on your performance or what's working* and what training you are working on to improve your shot consistency.  Without that information it would be like coaching a random event, I'd have no frame of reference.

Then when I did watch you I would comment on the shots that were good and basically ask how those shots felt and why you think they were good (probably because you followed your shot process).  You have to be able to answer that question because if you can't tell me you followed your shot process and had great fundamentals through the shot you will never improve. If you had trouble knowing if you were on process I'd suggest you need to develop new indicators to help keep you on it.  You need good fundamentals to be able to call your shots which is important to improvement.   When you are learning if you shoot a called 10 or X you need to keep that in your mind, replay the shot in your mind, then work to recreate it.  If you shoot an X but didn't call it, or don't know if you followed your shot process, well that's no help.  If you are just pulling the trigger shot after shot without understanding why the good shots went where they did you aren't learning anything.  I mistakenly left out a very key word.  Now fixed! 

Modified my statement to: Spend <0.1% on what you did wrong (in fact you should forget it ASAP) and 99.999% working on recreating that 10 or X and your scores will go up.


This sport is fundamentally very simple, it's just not easy.  Stink'n think'n gets in the way FAR too much.

Get your mind focused and look for success / develop indicators for when the following are right
stance
grip
sight alignment/picture
trigger control
follow through
repetition & consistency = good scores

- Dave

*in the Performance Journal you don't write things like "I keep relaxing my grip"
You write "Today I shot several 10's & X's, when I kept my grip tight and consistent through follow through"
Practice/training objective: Keep grip tight/consistent through follow through 100%, possibly develop indicator to help. (Basically repeating what you did right)

It's a Performance Journal not a non-performance journal. 
Plus keep any equipment changes you made, like sight adjustments, recoil spring changes, etc....


Last edited by dronning on 8/11/2018, 12:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
avatar
dronning

Posts : 1765
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 64
Location : Lakeville, MN

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by Jwhelan939 on 8/11/2018, 8:36 am

dronning wrote:
mikemyers wrote:
I fully expect that if I were to ask 'droning' to watch me and comment, instead of telling me what I'm doing right, he would suggest what I might change to do better - which would be FAR more helpful to me, in my opinion.
Actually Mike if you asked me to watch and comment the first thing I would ask would be to see your Performance Journal.  You know that notebook where you keep your goals, your shot process and the notes on your performance or what's working* and what training you are working on to improve your shot consistency.  Without that information it would be like coaching a random event, I'd have no frame of reference.

Then when I did watch you I would comment on the shots that were good and basically ask how those shots felt and why you think they were good (probably because you followed your shot process).  You have to be able to answer that question because if you can't tell me you followed your shot process and had great fundamentals through the shot you will never improve. If you had trouble knowing if you were on process I'd suggest you need to develop new indicators to help keep you on it.  You need good fundamentals to be able to call your shots which is important to improvement.   When you are learning if you shoot a called 10 or X you need to keep that in your mind, replay the shot in your mind, then work to recreate it.  If you shoot an X but didn't call it, or don't know if you followed your shot process, well that's no help.  If you are just pulling the trigger shot after shot without understanding why the shots went where they did you aren't learning anything. 

Spend <1% on what you did wrong and >99% working on recreating that 10 or X and your scores will go up.

This sport is fundamentally very simple, it's just not easy.  Stink'n think'n gets in the way FAR too much.

Get your mind focused and look for success / develop indicators for when the following are right
stance
grip
sight alignment/picture
trigger control
follow through
repetition & consistency = good scores

- Dave

*in the Performance Journal you don't write things like "I keep relaxing my grip"
You write "Today I shot several 10's & X's, when I kept my grip tight and consistent through follow through"
Practice/training objective: Keep grip tight/consistent through follow through 100%, possibly develop indicator to help. (Basically repeating what you did right)

It's a Performance Journal not a non-performance journal. 
Plus keep any equipment changes you made, like sight adjustments, recoil spring changes, etc....
Great info! 


I have always been a little perplexed by what should be in my performance journal. Even after reading "With Winning in Mind" and purchasing Mr Basham's journal. This season I started recording scores, weather, mindset, any changes to my process, what I did well and any goals for upcoming practice sessions. Pretty much like what you have suggested. I honestly don't know if it is helping me, but only time will tell. I will say it has helped me to realize that I was going wayyy too fast. My entire shot process really could just be the word SLOW.

Jwhelan939

Posts : 393
Join date : 2013-04-27
Age : 35
Location : Pipersville, PA

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by mikemyers on 8/11/2018, 8:57 am

dronning wrote:
........If you are just pulling the trigger shot after shot without understanding why the shots went where they did you aren't learning anything.......

I do have log books for both reloading and shooting, but I have never yet documented the things you are suggesting.  I will be more detailed from now on.

I only quoted one sentence that you wrote up above - that sentence is exactly what I have been getting better at for all these years. If I think I have done everything correctly, the holes in the target are within my capability to "hold" on the target.  If a hole is outside of that area, I want to know why.  Sometimes I think I know; other times I'm puzzled.

(This is especially true now that I'm shooting my High Standard one handed, as I'm still struggling to simply hold the gun on target, let alone centering the dot and my trigger control.)

As to keeping records, I either keep my targets, or take photos of them.
avatar
mikemyers

Posts : 1081
Join date : 2016-07-26
Age : 74
Location : South Florida, and India

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by CR10X on 8/11/2018, 11:15 am

You are still missing the most important thing after multiple posts among multiple topics since you started.

You do not want, need or think about why a shot is out of the group (except when testing loads). It does not matter why for these shots, they are not important.

You want to see, feel, know and understand what creates shots that are consistently in your group. Knowing the how for these shots is vitally important for improvement.

As soon as you start asking why a shot is out of the group, then you have completely lost sight of what you are trying to do.

CR

CR10X

Posts : 742
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by dronning on 8/11/2018, 12:04 pm

CR10X wrote:You are still missing the most important thing after multiple posts among multiple topics since you started.

You do not want, need or think about why a shot is out of the group (except when testing loads).  It does not matter why for these shots, they are not important.

You want to see, feel, know and understand what creates shots that are consistently in your group.  Knowing the how for these shots is vitally important for improvement.

As soon as you start asking why a shot is out of the group, then you have completely lost sight of what you are trying to do.

CR

++++1 Well said and it couldn't be any more clear than that!
avatar
dronning

Posts : 1765
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 64
Location : Lakeville, MN

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by dronning on 8/11/2018, 12:43 pm

mikemyers wrote:
dronning wrote:
........If you are just pulling the trigger shot after shot without understanding why the good shots went where they did you aren't learning anything.......I have to apologize for leaving the key word "good" out of my initial post.

  .......If a hole is outside of that area, I want to know why.  Sometimes I think I know; other times I'm puzzled.
.........

Why do you care?  I am am puzzled by your fixation??  Time spent trying to figure out a bad shot only reinforces to your subconscious that what you are focusing on (a bad shot) is important!  Guess what you then become more inclined to repeat it

The key to good shooting as stated in my post above is to train for good fundamentals.  What I also failed to mention is this is so your subconscious can take over key aspects of the process.  Don't confuse it by focusing on bad shots.
- Dave
avatar
dronning

Posts : 1765
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 64
Location : Lakeville, MN

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by CR10X on 8/11/2018, 2:30 pm

Any why are you keeping pictures of targets with bad shots? Simply keep record of how many good (acceptable) shots per string in your journal along with the goal for each session. That way, you are tracking success, not remembering / seeing something that reminds the subconscious of something you would prefer to forget. When you get the best target you have to date, keep it until you get a better one, then toss the old one you have now surpassed.

Dwell on success.

CR10X

Posts : 742
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by Aprilian on 8/11/2018, 3:19 pm

I have coached track motorcycle riders for 10 years and there are lots of good points above, but I'd like to offer a different way to simplify this for Mike.

*At outset, you have good shots and bad shots and no idea why.
*Then you learn about fundamentals and hopefully change some aspects of your shooting and hopefully see an improvement.  You MUST study what you are doing and learn for yourself what correlations exist between your grip, stance, aim, execution, mental attitude, etc. and a good shot.   This is what the shooting journal is for.   Compare "I lost focus on consistent grip and shot 65" to "When I had a tight grip 5 out of 10 shots were 10's".   The positive phrasing in your journal burns the correct correlation into your subconscious.   Here is where a coach can help you learn the positive fundamentals, if you have access to one.
*Then you can sense when something went wrong, note it and correct for the next shot.  You do have to realize "I loosened my grip" (a negative thought) in order to focus on "keep my grip tight" for the next shot/string, but quickly move your thoughts to the positive.
*Have a cheerleader/mentor/coach remind you how good you are in tough situations - and if they aren't available, you have to own that responsibility.  
*Then go on to tell other shooters what you observe them doing well.   I had a rider tell me last month at the the track that "whatever you did, you walked away from me" which I had not done before.   I am still smiling about that as I often have problems staying up with that rider.  Strangely saying positive things to others makes it easier to say positive things to yourself.
avatar
Aprilian

Posts : 525
Join date : 2016-05-13
Location : Minnesota

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by mspingeld on 8/11/2018, 3:33 pm

Another theme in the book (remember? I started this thread about a book I liked), rather than tell yourself what to do, try to observe (watch or feel) how you’re doing that thing without trying to make any change. For example, rather than telling yourself “grip the gun firmly”, try to simply pay attention to how you’re gripping the gun. It’s enlightening. Really, it’s a good book. And to all who’ve commented, thank you! I very much enjoy the conversation and I appreciate your help.

mspingeld

Posts : 340
Join date : 2014-04-19
Age : 58
Location : New Jersey

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by Jack H on 8/11/2018, 4:32 pm

mspingeld wrote:Another theme in the book (remember? I started this thread about a book I liked), rather than tell yourself what to do, try to observe (watch or feel) how you’re doing that thing without trying to make any change. For example, rather than telling yourself “grip the gun firmly”, try to simply pay attention to how you’re gripping the gun. It’s enlightening. Really, it’s a good book. And to all who’ve commented, thank you! I very much enjoy the conversation and I appreciate your help.

To borrow from the bolded line above, I like the idea instead to make it "rather than telling yourself “grip the gun firmly”, am I seeing the result I want?
Do pay attention to how you are gripping the gun when you set up.  But on target you only want to observe.
avatar
Jack H

Posts : 1523
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Oregon

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by Oleg G on 8/11/2018, 4:43 pm

This is for Mike Myers,

I want to try to explain things in a slightly different light. You approach shooting as a problem to be solved, or as a piece of broken machinery or electronics, which needs to be repaired.

You wrote:

"The way I fixed that was to figure out what I did wrong, that caused the crash, and learn to do things differently."

This a good way to restore something to the previously known good working condition - you find the broken part, replace it and thing is back to normal.

However, you are learning a new skill, there is no previously known good working condition. Therefore, there is nothing to fix. There is nothing broken. You are not doing anything wrong. You simply have not yet learned how to do the right thing consistently time after time. Thus, you need to focus on repeating the steps you performed correctly in the same exact way, instead of analyzing the steps you performed incorrectly.
I recall how I learned to ride a bike when I was a child: every time I fell off, I simply got back onto the bike and tried to ride again, repeating this until I learned to do things correctly and no longer was failing off the bike. I did not stop to think about what exactly I did wrong that led me to fall off the bike, I simply brushed it off, brushed off my knees as well, and got back on the bike with the goal to do the right thing and ride the durned thing!

Stop trying to fix something that is not broken and instead focus on learning this new skill, which you have not yet mastered.

Hope this helps,
Oleg.
avatar
Oleg G

Posts : 153
Join date : 2016-05-12
Location : North-Eastern PA

Back to top Go down

Re: Coaching tip

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum