WST cause leading with swaged lead?

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WST cause leading with swaged lead?

Post by joy2shoot on Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:31 am

This post is related to Alex's (tceva) post on WST Equivalent.
http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t10213-wst-equivalent

I shoot swaged lead and noticed that if I use N310 powder, lead is already building up in the barrel before the match is over.  However, when I use Bullseye with swaged lead, there is no perceivable leading.

What is your experience with using WST with swagged lead bullets?  'No' leading like Bullseye?  Or leading?

Thanks in advance.

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Re: WST cause leading with swaged lead?

Post by Chris Miceli on Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:34 am

what are your load specs and fps? for each load,
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Re: WST cause leading with swaged lead?

Post by james r chapman on Tue Aug 07, 2018 6:45 am

I've found generally the powder makes little difference.
Velocity and lube make a difference.

I was wrong before, could be again too.
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Re: WST cause leading with swaged lead?

Post by Chris Miceli on Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:02 am

james r chapman wrote:I've found generally the powder makes little difference.
Velocity and lube make a difference.

I was wrong before, could be again too.
+1
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Re: WST cause leading with swaged lead?

Post by joy2shoot on Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:06 am

Chris Miceli wrote:what are your load specs and fps? for each load,
The load was 200 gr SWC swagged lead with 3.85 gr N310 vs 200 gr SWC swagged lead with 4.2 gr Bullseye.  Crimp is 0.468".  Bullet was seated such that the shoulder of the SWC is 0.020 - 0.030" above case mouth.  Brass is Starline.  Primes are WLP.  Barrel is Kart.

Sorry, but I do not have fps numbers.

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Re: WST cause leading with swaged lead?

Post by weber1b on Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:46 am

joy2shoot wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:what are your load specs and fps? for each load,
The load was 200 gr SWC swagged lead with 3.85 gr N310 vs 200 gr SWC swagged lead with 4.2 gr Bullseye.  Crimp is 0.468".  Bullet was seated such that the shoulder of the SWC is 0.020 - 0.030" above case mouth.  Brass is Starline.  Primes are WLP.  Barrel is Kart.

Sorry, but I do not have fps numbers.
I think the load amount on the powder is more the issue. Bullseye and N310 generally run pretty close to each other for the same performance so the leading might be resolved with a different load.

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Re: WST cause leading with swaged lead?

Post by Toz35m on Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:09 am

I will get leading when pushing a swagged bullet too fast.  My testing with 200gr bullet (hard cast) had 3.8gr N310 at 768 fps.  This load with a swagged bullet could have different velocity results. For BE I only have 4.0gr load at 780fps with the same bullet.  

I would try and keep your velocity around 750 to reduce the leading.

I have shot the Zero swagged 185gr SWCHP at 768fps with no leading.
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Re: WST cause leading with swaged lead?

Post by Bob Fleming on Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:29 pm

Is the leading in the chamber end or the muzzle end of the barrel?

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Re: WST cause leading with swaged lead?

Post by joy2shoot on Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:59 pm

Bob Fleming wrote:Is the leading in the chamber end or the muzzle end of the barrel?
Always the chamber end.

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Re: WST cause leading with swaged lead?

Post by Bob Fleming on Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:22 pm

The leading is probably caused by flame cutting from the gas escaping past the bullet before it manages to seal the bore.

Obturation
Need more it it. Hit it hard enough and the base of the bullet begins to move before the nose. This causes the bullet to expand in diameter and seal the bore.
Normaly this is caused by a few common problems.

The lead is too hard.
The load is too soft.
bullet is way undersized. Either it was loaded that way or the cylinder mouths are very undersized.

I will take a guess that we can eliminate revolver cylinders.

Swaged bullets are almost always very soft, near pure lead. Swaged bullets are more likely to solve this problem than cause it. What is the unfired bullet measured diameter? Does it seem soft it you scratch on it with a fingernail?

3.85 gr N310 should be plenty. I have used as low as 3.2 Bullseye with a swaged 185 with no leading in my 45ACP Kart barrels.

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Re: WST cause leading with swaged lead?

Post by joy2shoot on Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:18 pm

Bob Fleming wrote:What is the unfired bullet measured diameter? Does it seem soft it you scratch on it with a fingernail?
Bob,

I get near-chamber leading if I shoot the Zero swaged 200gr SWC and 3.85 gr N310. I do not get leading when I use the same bullet and 4.2gr of Bullseye. Crimp is 0.468" for both loads. Bullet was seated such that the shoulder of the SWC is 0.020 - 0.030" above case mouth. Brass is Starline. Primers are WLP. Barrel is Kart. The gun is a 1911. I use a NOE expander plug to expand the brass so the bullet diameter is not reduced when seated in the case.  Zero's swaged bullets are indeed soft when compared to cast.

I was trying to determine if I switched from Bullseye to WST, would I re-introduce leading with change in powder.  But it sounds like what I need to do is determine the fps for the Bullseye load and replicate that velocity with WST.

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Re: WST cause leading with swaged lead?

Post by Aprilian on Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:35 am

joy2shoot wrote:
Bob Fleming wrote:What is the unfired bullet measured diameter? Does it seem soft it you scratch on it with a fingernail?
Bob,

I get near-chamber leading if I shoot the Zero swaged 200gr SWC and 3.85 gr N310. I do not get leading when I use the same bullet and 4.2gr of Bullseye. Crimp is 0.468" for both loads. Bullet was seated such that the shoulder of the SWC is 0.020 - 0.030" above case mouth. Brass is Starline. Primers are WLP. Barrel is Kart. The gun is a 1911. I use a NOE expander plug to expand the brass so the bullet diameter is not reduced when seated in the case.  Zero's swaged bullets are indeed soft when compared to cast.

I was trying to determine if I switched from Bullseye to WST, would I re-introduce leading with change in powder.  But it sounds like what I need to do is determine the fps for the Bullseye load and replicate that velocity with WST.
Which size Noe expander?  
Have you loaded a dummy round and pulled the bullet to measure for any reduction from loading and crimping?   
I actually ended up selecting a different size expander for swaged but haven't used it enough to confirm it addressed all leading.
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Re: WST cause leading with swaged lead?

Post by Bob Fleming on Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:29 am

NOE expander.
That reminds me of reading about issues with the NOE expander a while back.
How is the expander working for you?

Very curious now how fast your loads will be over a chronograph. It seems that somehow, 3.85 grains of VV N310 is not hot enough but this does not seen logical.

Bullseye is a throwback from the stone age of smokeless powder. Bullseye is dirty but the residue cleans off with great ease. It is my favorite because it works better with my loads.

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Re: WST cause leading with swaged lead?

Post by joy2shoot on Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:49 am

The expander I am using for both my swaged and cast bullets is listed as .456 x .452 on the NOE web site.  I use this expander for both since both bullets have a diameter of .452.  

I did have a brass shredding issue with the expander at first but people on this forum helped me solve that.  I needed to polish the expander which I did with a polishing compound intended for stainless steel.

I agree, I need to chrono my 200 gr swaged lead bullet with 4.2 gr of Bullseye.  Especially when I look at using WST to replace Bullseye.

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Re: WST cause leading with swaged lead?

Post by farmboy on Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:50 pm

Zero swaged will leave lead at the start of the rifling  for me in a couple of my guns no matter what powder or charge weight. The leading is minimal and has never caused accuracy problems.  My preferred powder and charge is 4.0-4.1 WST for slide mounted optics.  Started shooting Dardas 160s this last year and have zero leading in all guns.
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Re: WST cause leading with swaged lead?

Post by jglenn21 on Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:42 pm

if you get leading with the swaged bullets and you like you load just coat them with 45-45-10 and move on.
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Re: WST cause leading with swaged lead?

Post by joy2shoot on Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:12 pm

jglenn21 wrote:if you get leading with the swaged bullets and you like you load just coat them with 45-45-10 and move on.
I get leading if I use N310. I do not when I use Bullseye. So my load of choice is Bullseye. But I am exploring using WST instead of Bullseye. So I was asking the forum if WST is prone to leading or not. The answer I seem to be getting is figure out the fps with the Bullseye load and duplicate that with WST. At least that is what I think I am hearing.

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Re: WST cause leading with swaged lead?

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