Air Pistol Cylinder Certification ?

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Air Pistol Cylinder Certification ?

Post by cuslog on Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:11 pm

Further to my previous questions re: a Steyr air pistol;
The A/P in question is used and may have not been used for a number of years.
Did I hear someone say that these cylinders are dated and expire (for competition use) after 10 years ?
I see that these cylinders are not cheap and if expired or close to it, the $ value of the A/P may be compromised ?

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Re: Air Pistol Cylinder Certification ?

Post by CR10X on Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:41 pm

Yes. Assuming you are shooting ISSF competitions.  I have not researched NRA or other sanctioning organizations' rules.
Yes.

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Re: Air Pistol Cylinder Certification ?

Post by BE Mike on Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:44 pm

I'm pretty sure that the NRA air pistol rules do not address the expiration of air cylinders. You will not be inspected for expired cylinders at NRA matches, as far as I know. If you are interested in shooting with the big boys and girls where the International Shooting Sports Federation rules are followed, that is another story. In their infinite wisdom, they decided that the air cylinders must be unexpired. IMHO, expired cylinders are not a safety concern. Morini used to be good for 20 years and indicated that on their cylinders. It seems a lot of ISSF rule changes end up costing a lot of money. Probably of no concern to supported shooters.
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Re: Air Pistol Cylinder Certification ?

Post by bruce martindale on Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:17 pm

My take, as a former international shooter: Application of European Pressure Equipment Directive (PED) should be illegal in the US but since it was also put into ISSF rules, and USAS operates under those rules, you are stuck if you want to participate in big sanctioned competitions. Many bought a new cylinder only to find it was already several years old. The rule doesn't hurt top level or supported shooter, it just kills junior, existing, and new entry shooters. Worst decision ever for our sport. Killed it for me. If there was a safety issue, it would occur during filling. A pvc sleeve over the cylinder would be a safeguard but no one will listen. Yes I can afford a new cylinder and even a new gun but the principle galls me to no end. Tanks the value for many many owners. Even undated co2 cylinders are affected and they have a safety valve and operate at 800# in a 3000# sleeve. Makes no sense.....that said, there could be corrosion in tubes that were filled from a hand pump because moisture is not fully eliminated. Still, I have not heard of failures other than manufacturing errors.

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Re: Air Pistol Cylinder Certification ?

Post by cuslog on Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:41 am

Mike, Bruce;
I agree completely, probably completely un-necessary.
With that attitude, I wonder if they allow re-loaded ammunition ?
I also agree that it probably discourages a lot of lower level shooters from taking up a/p.
de-values a lot of otherwise fine pistols.

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Re: Air Pistol Cylinder Certification ?

Post by Chris Miceli on Sun Sep 16, 2018 10:59 am

a cylinder every 10 years killing the sport? huh?
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Re: Air Pistol Cylinder Certification ?

Post by bruce martindale on Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:39 pm

Every four years since it was already 6 yo when "new" .

Solution to a non problem 

Some guns can't get a new cylinder, one of them is even integral to the gun. There is no replacing it. As I said, kills jrs and clubs. 

Fortunately, most people running competitions ignore it. 


Does kill the CAGP, the USAS Nationals, and the OTC shoots.

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Re: Air Pistol Cylinder Certification ?

Post by Chris Miceli on Sun Sep 16, 2018 3:27 pm

no one shoots national because its rarely a PSS. If you see how many people shoot air rifle parents have no problem spending $ on rifles gear or anything else. Pistol has near no scholarship opportunities or high school teams. Rifle on the other hand isn't hurting at all.

It was last year or the year before that usa shooting centerfire national champion that had like 1 competitor.
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Re: Air Pistol Cylinder Certification ?

Post by BE Mike on Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:30 pm

I agree with Bruce. Expiration dates on air cylinders is a solution looking for a problem. It is just another aggravation promulgated by the "nanny state" mentality of another international body.
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Re: Air Pistol Cylinder Certification ?

Post by cuslog on Sun Sep 16, 2018 5:37 pm

The "Nanny State" is insidious, like a cancer, always extending it's tentacles. Governments, Governing bodies and Insurance Companies.
At 67, going on 68 years old, I doubt I'll ever shoot International, I'm just looking for a nice air pistol to shoot in my basement. Actually, I'll probably end up with one that has expired cylinders because the re-sale value will be down to where I can maybe afford / justify another "toy".

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Re: Air Pistol Cylinder Certification ?

Post by bruce martindale on Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:19 pm

What's worse is a governing body that doesn't consider the impact to, or respect it's base membership. I've said too much already.

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Re: Air Pistol Cylinder Certification ?

Post by Jack H on Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:48 pm

Wish I could find cylinders for this.  These are dated 1996 and 1997.   And I wish my LP10 would fit me like this one.  
97
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Re: Air Pistol Cylinder Certification ?

Post by BEA on Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:59 pm

Too bad they can't or won't recertify the cylinders every few years like they do scuba tanks. The bottom line is shooting international is very expensive, every aspect of it is costly. The cylinders are the least of your worries if you are paying for travel to matches and entry fees. The cost of the guns is prohibitive for a lot of people who just want to shoot for fun, or have a means of indoor practice in the off season. It is hard to tell where this started, but likely with BAM (some German acronym) which is a testing, certification, monitoring and inspection third party body in Germany. Complain all you want to, but good luck in getting anyone to change their mind. The bottom line is that if you want to shoot air pistol, you have to pay to play...period. That is why I wish someone still made a good quality spring gun...but why should they...they have all the marbles and old technology seldom attracts people. Anyway, the cylinder expiration dates seem to mean little over here. I think the NRA knows that if they go down that road, they will kill their air pistol matches. USA Shooting does not care, they do not gear their matches to attract regular guys. They do not want regular guys. We get in the way and make for more work. They not only don't need me, they evidently don't need my money either. So be it. I loved shooting air pistol just like alot of you, but for the most part, that sport has left the regular person behind.

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Re: Air Pistol Cylinder Certification ?

Post by cuslog on Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:35 am

I think the manufacturers play a part in this as well. It keeps participants buying new equipment every few years.

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Re: Air Pistol Cylinder Certification ?

Post by Chris Miceli on Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:56 am

cuslog wrote:I think the manufacturers play a part in this as well. It keeps participants buying new equipment every few years.
a cylinder every 10 years? Steyr lp10 evo cylinders still fit LP1s and Morini cm200 cylinders still fit the 162.
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Re: Air Pistol Cylinder Certification ?

Post by Wobbley on Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:37 am

Here is the official rationale from Feinwerkbau

https://www.feinwerkbau.de/ceasy/modules/core/resources/main.php?id=1104-0&download=1

I have no idea what metal alloy they used or it’s post manufacturung treatments.  But, presuming it is aluminum alloy, I find it very hard to believe that an aluminum alloy would continue to age to the point of embrittlement in ten years.  If it did, Aircraft would be falling out of the sky like leaves.  Spent 34 years as a structures engineer in that industry.  Also, it is common to proof test the cylinder and in US military/aerospace practice the proof test is 2x working pressure.  The cylinder cannot deform.  But they did say that recertification under German Pressure Vessel Regulations is not required.  

So my take on this is that the lawyers got scared.  As an engineer, my solution would be to proof test the cylinders at 10 years and every 5 years thereafter up to 4 times.  After the 4th proof test, the cylinder would be depressurized and destroyed.  If you can’t reproof then the cylinder can only be charged at half pressure until it can.
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