Reasons not to shoot bullseye

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Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by bruce martindale on 9/15/2018, 10:11 pm

why our sport is dying, ways to fix it.

1 cost: l suspect a lot of people , especially those are aren't good shooters yet, would object to spending $50 for a day of shooting.
Fix...no NRA registration or payout, shoot for $5 or so? Cover costs.

2 50 yards is too far
Fix... make it a short course 25 yards

3 time.  It takes too long. Few people have all day to spend

Fix ...make it a 600. 22 plus cf. popular elsewhere, quick and easy
Fix 2...make it a 900, all 22 for some, 3 nmc  with 22 and centerfire sets
Fix 3. Occasional 1800 with two 900s. Add occasional 50 yd target

Maybe build up from fix 1 to fix 3 as the season goes?


4 special equipment and ammo: they don't have it.
Fix... 22s are perfect, revolvers are out of the box, common, stock guns or keep it all at short range. Hard to enforce stock with 1911 

5 they can't ever win

Fix...hmm ... prizes, nothing expensive, but base on say high target of the day, or random drawing?

6 range support staff.
Fix... buddy system for safety, caller also shoots. Scoring work can be distributed to shooters to sum up. Or leader board it as we go.


We are having success with short range pin and plate shoots, no holsters. Any gun.

Let me know your thoughts, hope it helps

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by john bickar on 9/15/2018, 10:25 pm

0. Nope. Our sport is not dying. Our sport is esoteric. There is a difference. Let's not be in a hurry to make this sport something different; if I wanted to do a different shooting sport, I would do it. There are plenty of other options.
1. Nope
2. Nope
3. Nope, but keep the match moving. I'm not keen on driving two hours for just an 1800, but I also don't need a 2700 to take 9 hours.
4. Nope. Seen highpower, 3-gun, or PRS?
5. Probably yes. I'm doing some experiments with my matches on this.
6. Definitely.

What we need are more matches, and for that, we need more people running matches, and for that, we need clubs willing to let the people who are willing to run matches, do that.


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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by zanemoseley on 9/15/2018, 10:46 pm

Cost is an issue, sometimes you don't realize it until you try to get someone into shooting. I have a pretty good job and still have to lay it on the line to get too notch equipment. Another biggie is reloading. A lot of people don't reload when they start out but you really have to, shooting 180 rounds of 45 at $.60 a round for Atlanta Arms isn't in many people's budget, plus practice ammo.

A fix to both issues above are starting a shooter with 22 only, it's a great start. At my small local range most of the shooters at our monthly matches are new and shoot 22 only, gets bodies on the line and let's everyone have a good time without getting frustrated or breaking the bank.

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by john bickar on 9/15/2018, 11:36 pm

Longer answer, after thinking about it some more, answering #1,2,3,4,5,6:

We run a league that shoots a 1200 (20SF, TF, RF with both .22 and CF) twice a month year-round. It goes from 6:30-9PM on the first and third Wednesdays of every month (#3).

We allow new shooters to shoot .22 the whole way through (#1, #4), and really new shooters can shoot two-handed.

The January-June league is the "scratch" league, and the July-December league is the "handicap" league (#5). The handicap league awards shooters who are shooting (roughly) "above-average".

It costs $10 per match for non-members (#1); that's $10 cheaper than the public range fee. Members pay $5 (#1).

We rotate range master duties (#6).

And then, if you want to step up from league shooting, we run two 2700s a year.

For our 2700s, for the princely sum of $30, you get:

  1. to shoot on one of the nicest ranges in California, in conditions that are primed for shooting a personal best (not just covered firing points, but individual shooting stalls!)
  2. fed a home-cooked BBQ lunch
  3. (off the record) free beers while waiting for awards
  4. the opportunity to win back more than your $30 entry fee


To #2: GTFO. If you have 50 yards, shoot 50 yards.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Founder on 9/16/2018, 12:22 am

I agree with many of the points that Bickar made above.

I've been nagging the NRA to make it easier for match officials to shoot in their own matches--make it worth their time--and to make sure there isn't cheating, make them forfeit any prizes and ineligible for any records. Simple.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by john bickar on 9/16/2018, 12:46 am

Founder wrote:I agree with many of the points that Bickar made above.

I've been nagging the NRA to make it easier for match officials to shoot in their own matches--make it worth their time--and to make sure there isn't cheating, make them forfeit any prizes and ineligible for any records. Simple.

You're only talking about "Approved" matches, yeah? It gets complicated after that.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Founder on 9/16/2018, 12:47 am

it's complicated--but it doesn't need to be.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by CR10X on 9/16/2018, 5:40 am

I've been running matches for almost 20 years now.  When I started there were about 5 regular shooters.  The line is mostly full now (20 positions) and the next closest match (run by a really great match director) generally has more than 20 shooters and is full for regional / state with 40 positions. So here's my take on the subject, based on my actual experience. 

There are lots of reasons not to shoot "Bullseye" Precision Pistol.   

The only one YOU can fix is making a match available.  All the rest of the reasons belong to other people.  You can't fix them. 

There are lots of reasons to shoot "Bullseye" Precision Pistol.

The one that really counts is that's because YOU want to.  YOU can't make someone else want to, YOU can only provide the opportunity and encouragement.

Everything else is pretty much just excuses, decoration or personal preference.  

BUT, try what you can, see what works. 

There are matches that are generally full or have waiting lists  (most of them locally), others are stable, others are diminishing.  It all depends on the local group of shooters and the availability of matches (all types, including informal leagues, etc.)  However, I've noticed that having more matches tends to correlate directly with having more shooters at the matches.  But it doesn't happen overnight.  And there is typically a small group (sometimes only one) of people that make the difference.  Hard work and perseverance tends to beat out "new" ideas most of the time, but you never know.  Getting good shooters on the line (send out invites, invite local Guard / Military teams, etc.) and others (Gunsmiths, vendors, etc.) and advertising (and shooting bullseye) at local "point and shoot" ranges; seems to get some people more interested. 

CR


Last edited by CR10X on 9/16/2018, 8:19 am; edited 5 times in total (Reason for editing : nothing else to do but watch it rain, clean up trees and wait for the flooding to pass.)

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Chris Miceli on 9/16/2018, 5:57 am

speed shooting aint cheap either
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Tim:H11 on 9/16/2018, 6:13 am

Some places could come down in cost of match fees I think. One monthly match I try to make often is $25. Then just south of me in GA their monthly match entry fee is $20 and I think it’s a trophy match. In my area there isn’t anything that I know ofnbesides the monthly shoots and after October those are done until March. Perhaps in a situation like that an indoor winter league of 22 only could be formed? Might be a good place for new shooters to cut their teeth at. Have it indoors. Once the spring and summer starts up they can join the outside shooters and move on to CF/45 when their ready. 

The problem I see with trying to reduce match fees though is it starts to not cover stuff like targets, backers, staples, and cost of upkeep of the range if it’s mostly a bullseye range. Thats sort of the situation we see here locally to me.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by cdrt on 9/16/2018, 7:40 am

To address the OP:

1. The NRA charges $4.50 per shooter for an approved match, $5.50 for a registered match and $8 for Regionals.  I run a fall/winter league where we shoot an 1800 every other Sunday.  The NRA Leagues are charged a flat fee based on the number of shooters, no matter how many matches; the minimum is $50, that allows me to reduce the Sunday fee to $10 and still pay out something to the shooters and pay for targets, etc. The scores go in to the NRA at the end of the league season.

2. Nobody said this sport was easy.  You can certainly run short course matches for the beginners, but sooner or later they need to learn how to shoot 50 yards.

3. Part of the problem with the time it takes to shoot a match, is the people running it.  I shot a Regional a few years ago and it took three hours just to shoot the 900 .22 match. The guy calling the match was never around when we got back from scoring and we had to track him down for the next stage.  We occasionally shoot three gun 1800's, where we eliminate the NMC, that way you can shoot all three guns.

4. You don't need a lot to shoot Bullseye; some kind of .22, ear and eye protection, a bag to put your stuff in and some kind of spotting scope or binoculars.  We tell new shooters to concentrate on the .22 before they invest in a 1911, etc.

5. That's why we have the classification system, so shooters compete against people with similar skill levels. I use any leftover funds to buy door prizes that are either just handed out or we shoot a staple match.

6. The only time the match director cannot shoot is during registered matches, like State, Regional or Sectionals.  For our approved matches, I trade off with someone when we call the timed/rapid stages, so everyone gets to shoot and they learn how to run a match.  We also have club matches where the scores are not sent in; the same thing applies there, we trade off for the timed/rapid stages.  It adds a little time to the match, but not much.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by bruce martindale on 9/16/2018, 9:15 am

I should clarify since nothing is really as simple as stated...

We have one local shoot that is one day only with no club members participating yet they have 40 at the winter indoor league ...l am looking to get them to play, otherwise the club may move to pull out the 30 point BE range. The folks, like myself that have run the outdoors matches are not members. 

I am trying to get new shooters ..the ones we have now all do the 3 hour drive thing for all matches in the area. But our numbers are limited and clubs have compressed to one day. 

There are other local clubs but none with be capable ranges. Two have already pulled be equipped ranges out. As a non member I can't get it back. My club has pits only so is not able to hold more than 4 shooters but I am looking to get some to play anyways. 1200 member club with 13 shooters for indoor be only.  Looking for any help or ideas to build it up from zero. Thanks

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Chris Miceli on 9/16/2018, 9:21 am

some people just want to shoot league and 22 only. we see it all the time. They don't feel like shooting the larger calibers or shooting all day. They mostly shoot as a social thing.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by dapduh2 on 9/16/2018, 10:47 am

I’m newer to the Sport. But the reasons you explained are he reasons I enjoy it. If you truly enjoy shooting then spending a day of it is amazing. Plus the 50 yards and 2700 is what makes it difficult and drew me in. I also enjoy shooting steel challenge matches with my Glock and an occasional uspsa match with my Glock or FNH, but it’s not as difficult. This sport truly takes work and practice. I don’t want to compete in something because it’s easy, I want to do it because it’s hard.

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Mike38 on 9/16/2018, 11:35 am

…..we need clubs willing to let the people who are willing to run matches, do that.

That right there is a huge problem. The club I'm a member at has a President that hates Bullseye Pistol, because he's no good at it. Since he hates it, he will not allow a league. I informed him that he doesn't have to do anything. I'll run the entire show. He doesn't even have to show up. I'll do it all. Nope.

This club has 3 to 4 leagues a year of what they call "Combat Pistol" which is just a slightly modified 48 shot PPC match. They average around 6 shooters each league session. SIX. That's it, six. They will run that, but won't even allow the thought of a Bullseye league at the monthly meetings.

So I train on Saturday mornings, at around 6:00am when no one is there. Quit going to meetings, quit helping on work days. Heck, they've probably forgotten I'm even a member.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Mike38 on 9/16/2018, 12:01 pm

50 yards is too far
Fix... make it a short course 25 yards

Try what's called a "Marksman Match". For slow fire, shoot the 50 yard B6 target at 25 yards. For sustained fire shoot the 25 yard B8 target at 15 yards. Practically anyone that can hold a pistol can shoot Master level scores at these "Marksman Matches". Then introduce them to an actual 25 yard short course.
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I like a challenge...

Post by dohner2 on 9/16/2018, 12:12 pm

dapduh2 wrote:I’m newer to the Sport. But the reasons you explained are he reasons I enjoy it. If you truly enjoy shooting then spending a day of it is amazing. Plus the 50 yards and 2700 is what makes it difficult and drew me in. I also enjoy shooting steel challenge matches with my Glock and an occasional uspsa match with my Glock or FNH, but it’s not as difficult. This sport truly takes work and practice. I don’t want to compete in something because it’s easy, I want to do it because it’s hard.

I'm new to the sport, too, and am driving an average of 2 1/5 hours to participate in 2700s whenever my schedule permits (full and short course). Not to sound like a snob, but I'm amazed at the low cost of participating in matches. When you consider all of the "man" hours that go into running a match, I consider $40 (+/-) to be a real deal. I'm all for providing scholarships or waiving fees for those who truly can't afford it, though. I can also see the value of making allowances for two-hand shooting for junior or inexperienced shooters; however, I think it is important to maintain the high standards and rigor of the sport overall. As dapduh says: I don't do it because it's easy, I do it because it's hard.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by dapduh2 on 9/16/2018, 12:27 pm


I'm new to the sport, too, and am driving an average of 2 1/5 hours to participate in 2700s whenever my schedule permits (full and short course). Not to sound like a snob, but I'm amazed at the low cost of participating in matches. When you consider all of the "man" hours that go into running a match, I consider $40 (+/-) to be a real deal. I'm all for providing scholarships or waiving fees for those who truly can't afford it, though. I can also see the value of making allowances for two-hand shooting for junior or inexperienced shooters; however, I think it is important to maintain the high standards and rigor of the sport overall. As dapduh says: I don't do it because it's easy, I do it because it's hard.
I like the challenge. But I totally agree with finding a way to get youth more involved. Not just in bullseye but all shooting sports.

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Neil308 on 9/16/2018, 12:40 pm

3. fix "keep the match moving" I agree.  Score your target and put a new one up, walk back and be ready to shoot with out wasting time.   27 targets times the extra 2-3 mins = 54-81mins
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by CR10X on 9/16/2018, 4:45 pm

Bruce / Mike.38/ et. al.

Addressing your specific comments; differently that my first impression of the topic. 

One thing I have observed and learned over the years is that a strong club will generally have a strong bond of mutual support among the match directors across all the shooting disciplines.  This provides a united group that supports all the competitive and training programs of a club, regardless of other "political" or governmental directions.  This does require match directors that are aware that no individual shooting sport discipline will survive unless they all do.  

Also I've noticed that strong clubs have a number of competitive and training programs that are available and advertised to shooters outside the club.  This provides additional "popular" support outside the club membership base that comes in very handy when the club is faced with noise, zoning, and other issues.  (Nothing like a "soccer mom" speaking up at a county board meeting because her son participated in the junior rifle program and came back year after year.)  

Additionally, the club and any particular shooting discipline will not really grow or continue without participation from non-club members.  The member base is just too small to maintain a critical mass after the "hard core few", "early adapters" and "thrill seekers"  begin to fade away or just plain die. 

So basically I've noticed that strong clubs generally have Match directors that support each other as a group, the club has a number of competitive and training programs, and the general public is welcomed and invited to attend through advertisement and solicitation.  

Clubs that divided support and take resources from one program to maintain or expand another one, rather than just adding new resources (ranges, directors, equipment, etc.) appear to eventually stagnate and die, either from internal attrition or outside forces.  Both of which require public support and interest to defeat. 

Just some sober thinking on a depressing subject. But I've seen what happens with each of these paths.  One is good for all shooting sports, the other, well not so good. 

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Allgoodhits on 9/16/2018, 7:45 pm

I am a crossover from the other side. The handsgun side vs the handgun side. Below is some feedback from some of my other friends, who tried BE, once and said they would not be back. Of course some may have been hiding behind the, "it's too hard excuse".

Shooting is fun. Scoring targets, score card tabulations and repairing targets isn't fun. In the action games most often things move pretty fast. Shooting, scoring, repairing targets and even match results from MDs. BE/PP takes so long because of the time spent at the target line, not the shooting line. No actual data, but I think it takes on average about 6-10 minutes between matches. Heck even the commands are long and drawn out. Yes, I understand the tradition and all that, but the "yutes" don't want to take all day to do something, especially, if it doesn't need to.

Some observations:

Commands: All could be streamlined significantly, saving much time. 
Identify match. about to be fired and get on with it.
SF Match, "10 shots, ten minutes. Load, Shooters Ready, FIRE". "Unload, make the line Safe". "Score and Repair Targets" 
TF Match. "5 shots, 20 seconds. Load 5 rounds, Shooters Ready, "Target". repeat. "Unload, make the line Safe". "Score and Repair Targets". 
RF Match. Same as TF except 10 seconds.  

"Make the line safe" means, guns unloaded on the bench and ECI in place. This should be "defined" at the beginning of each "gun" not repeated all day. Following make the line safe the ROs are doing their duty. After they have notified match caller then match caller simply says, "Score and Repair" and they don't do this until the line is safe.
When appropriate advise which "target center" to repair with and move frames.

Scoring: On the target line only score for shot value of each hit. No math.

Alibis: Do away with them, other than range alibi. 

I know blasphemy to suggest some changes to 100 year old institution, but my gosh, if you had experienced some of the other shooting games out there, BE to them is like watching paint dry. In part because of the long drawn out commands, which need not be so time consuming. The time it takes to repair targets, and the alibis time . We recently had a rare alibi string on SF.

My .02 cents toward making the game more inviting. Note, no suggestion I made dilutes the difficulty. In fact taking out the alibis, makes it harder.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by cdrt on 9/16/2018, 8:03 pm

Allgoodhits wrote:I am a crossover from the other side. The handsgun side vs the handgun side. Below is some feedback from some of my other friends, who tried BE, once and said they would not be back. Of course some may have been hiding behind the, "it's too hard excuse".

Shooting is fun. Scoring targets, score card tabulations and repairing targets isn't fun. In the action games most often things move pretty fast. Shooting, scoring, repairing targets and even match results from MDs. BE/PP takes so long because of the time spent at the target line, not the shooting line. No actual data, but I think it takes on average about 6-10 minutes between matches. Heck even the commands are long and drawn out. Yes, I understand the tradition and all that, but the "yutes" don't want to take all day to do something, especially, if it doesn't need to.

Some observations:

Commands: All could be streamlined significantly, saving much time. 
Identify match. about to be fired and get on with it.
SF Match, "10 shots, ten minutes. Load, Shooters Ready, FIRE". "Unload, make the line Safe". "Score and Repair Targets" 
TF Match. "5 shots, 20 seconds. Load 5 rounds, Shooters Ready, "Target". repeat. "Unload, make the line Safe". "Score and Repair Targets". 
RF Match. Same as TF except 10 seconds.  

"Make the line safe" means, guns unloaded on the bench and ECI in place. This should be "defined" at the beginning of each "gun" not repeated all day. Following make the line safe the ROs are doing their duty. After they have notified match caller then match caller simply says, "Score and Repair" and they don't do this until the line is safe.
When appropriate advise which "target center" to repair with and move frames.

Scoring: On the target line only score for shot value of each hit. No math.

Alibis: Do away with them, other than range alibi. 

I know blasphemy to suggest some changes to 100 year old institution, but my gosh, if you had experienced some of the other shooting games out there, BE to them is like watching paint dry. In part because of the long drawn out commands, which need not be so time consuming. The time it takes to repair targets, and the alibis time . We recently had a rare alibi string on SF.

My .02 cents toward making the game more inviting. Note, no suggestion I made dilutes the difficulty. In fact taking out the alibis, makes it harder.
The rules already allow for a "no alibi" match. It just has to be stated in the match program.  It is required to have approximately three seconds between each command when preparing the line to fire.  Editing the commands to make the line safe would be problematical, especially if you have new shooters on the line.  It does not take that much time to do it the way the rule book says.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Allgoodhits on 9/16/2018, 8:20 pm

cdrt wrote:
Allgoodhits wrote:I am a crossover from the other side. The handsgun side vs the handgun side. Below is some feedback from some of my other friends, who tried BE, once and said they would not be back. Of course some may have been hiding behind the, "it's too hard excuse".

Shooting is fun. Scoring targets, score card tabulations and repairing targets isn't fun. In the action games most often things move pretty fast. Shooting, scoring, repairing targets and even match results from MDs. BE/PP takes so long because of the time spent at the target line, not the shooting line. No actual data, but I think it takes on average about 6-10 minutes between matches. Heck even the commands are long and drawn out. Yes, I understand the tradition and all that, but the "yutes" don't want to take all day to do something, especially, if it doesn't need to.

Some observations:

Commands: All could be streamlined significantly, saving much time. 
Identify match. about to be fired and get on with it.
SF Match, "10 shots, ten minutes. Load, Shooters Ready, FIRE". "Unload, make the line Safe". "Score and Repair Targets" 
TF Match. "5 shots, 20 seconds. Load 5 rounds, Shooters Ready, "Target". repeat. "Unload, make the line Safe". "Score and Repair Targets". 
RF Match. Same as TF except 10 seconds.  

"Make the line safe" means, guns unloaded on the bench and ECI in place. This should be "defined" at the beginning of each "gun" not repeated all day. Following make the line safe the ROs are doing their duty. After they have notified match caller then match caller simply says, "Score and Repair" and they don't do this until the line is safe.
When appropriate advise which "target center" to repair with and move frames.

Scoring: On the target line only score for shot value of each hit. No math.

Alibis: Do away with them, other than range alibi. 

I know blasphemy to suggest some changes to 100 year old institution, but my gosh, if you had experienced some of the other shooting games out there, BE to them is like watching paint dry. In part because of the long drawn out commands, which need not be so time consuming. The time it takes to repair targets, and the alibis time . We recently had a rare alibi string on SF.

My .02 cents toward making the game more inviting. Note, no suggestion I made dilutes the difficulty. In fact taking out the alibis, makes it harder.
The rules already allow for a "no alibi" match. It just has to be stated in the match program.  It is required to have approximately three seconds between each command when preparing the line to fire.  Editing the commands to make the line safe would be problematical, especially if you have new shooters on the line.  It does not take that much time to do it the way the rule book says.
Change the Rule Book. Since we're not getting new shooters on the line, then it won't matter. That was the topic, trying to bring in new folks. I doubt today that we're likely to get a "new shooter" to bullseye. We may get a shooter, who is "new" to bullseye. If they come from NRA AP, IDPA, USPSA they know well about safety and clearing guns. In many ways, their gun handling and range safety protocols are much stricter than BE. Other ways, maybe not as much. Just some ideas to get more into the game, which at our Club is faltering, and we have had BE at our Club since the late 40's. If we're lucky we get 20-26 people. Our IDPA matches we get 100+.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by chopper on 9/16/2018, 8:44 pm

Bullseye is based on shooting with one hand only, you only get one mag with 5 rounds in it and you don't just clear your jam, drop your mag and reload like IDPA, USPSA, and other action games. Tell the action shooters no reloads and they wouldn't like that. I haven't read the rules lately but I don't think alibis are allowed in slow fire at all.
 I used to shoot IDPA for a few years and had a few jams cleared and retained mag changes. I also stood around for 30+ mins waiting to shoot my stages, if it rained they didn't want you to shoot, you might slip and get a unintentional discharge because you are moving and shooting.
 When I first got my Iowa permit to carry, I thought it was helpful with scenarios and mind set. I also got tired of being one of the few guys doing all the pasting of targets and setting the pepper poppers back up, while others were standing around talking what a better gun they had. So I started shooting precision and dig the heck out of it. I can truly say it takes much more discipline to enjoy bullseye, whether on the line or at home dry fire training.
 Will I shoot action again, I might make it to a match sometime if I get bored shooting Bullseye or want to listen to a couple of the guys bitch about the rules and give an excuse why they missed 2 in the head at 15'.
 Stan

chopper

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Ed Hall on 9/16/2018, 9:15 pm

bruce martindale wrote:...
2 50 yards is too far
Fix... make it a short course 25 yards
...
Check into firing some 25 yard matches with the same format, but using the B-23 target throughout.  The Anne Arundel F&G Club in MD already holds some of these matches.  They're called Army-L matches and have a pretty good turnout.

Ed Hall

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

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