Reasons not to shoot bullseye

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Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by bruce martindale on 9/15/2018, 10:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

why our sport is dying, ways to fix it.

1 cost: l suspect a lot of people , especially those are aren't good shooters yet, would object to spending $50 for a day of shooting.
Fix...no NRA registration or payout, shoot for $5 or so? Cover costs.

2 50 yards is too far
Fix... make it a short course 25 yards

3 time.  It takes too long. Few people have all day to spend

Fix ...make it a 600. 22 plus cf. popular elsewhere, quick and easy
Fix 2...make it a 900, all 22 for some, 3 nmc  with 22 and centerfire sets
Fix 3. Occasional 1800 with two 900s. Add occasional 50 yd target

Maybe build up from fix 1 to fix 3 as the season goes?


4 special equipment and ammo: they don't have it.
Fix... 22s are perfect, revolvers are out of the box, common, stock guns or keep it all at short range. Hard to enforce stock with 1911 

5 they can't ever win

Fix...hmm ... prizes, nothing expensive, but base on say high target of the day, or random drawing?

6 range support staff.
Fix... buddy system for safety, caller also shoots. Scoring work can be distributed to shooters to sum up. Or leader board it as we go.


We are having success with short range pin and plate shoots, no holsters. Any gun.

Let me know your thoughts, hope it helps

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by orpheoet on 9/16/2018, 10:52 pm

I don't think there is anything wrong with the format. I think there are a multitude of things wrong with the governing body primarily if not disinterest, certainly the most cursory of attention. 
I shoot a USPSA match and my scores are up on Practiscore usually by the end of the night. I earn DR points they might show up 6 months to a year later.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by john bickar on 9/16/2018, 11:23 pm

Allgoodhits, some interesting ideas. I like the "no math on the scoring line" idea.

An experienced line caller can keep the match moving without making the shooters feel rushed. And I think that if you cut the commands down, you're going to have a safety issue with newer shooters, and make experienced shooters feel rushed. It's not the 40 seconds between "the range is clear, you may approach the bench and handle your guns" and "ready on the firing line" that makes a 2700 take 9 hours. It's all the other "1 minute here, 2 minutes there" BS multiplied by 27 (as someone else alluded to).

An outdoor 50- & 25-yard 900 should take no more than 90 minutes.

On the other hand, even during a slow 2700, you get a lot of shooting. Even the best-run highpower rifle matches are 7 hours to shoot 80 shots, and you're doing manual labor for a good chunk of those 7 hours.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Chris Miceli on 9/17/2018, 5:26 am

john bickar wrote:Allgoodhits, some interesting ideas. I like the "no math on the scoring line" idea.

An experienced line caller can keep the match moving without making the shooters feel rushed. And I think that if you cut the commands down, you're going to have a safety issue with newer shooters, and make experienced shooters feel rushed. It's not the 40 seconds between "the range is clear, you may approach the bench and handle your guns" and "ready on the firing line" that makes a 2700 take 9 hours. It's all the other "1 minute here, 2 minutes there" BS multiplied by 27 (as someone else alluded to).

An outdoor 50- & 25-yard 900 should take no more than 90 minutes.

On the other hand, even during a slow 2700, you get a lot of shooting. Even the best-run highpower rifle matches are 7 hours to shoot 80 shots, and you're doing manual labor for a good chunk of those 7 hours.
I don't shoot bullseye because Bickar is too good.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by cdrt on 9/17/2018, 7:07 am

chopper wrote:Bullseye is based on shooting with one hand only, you only get one mag with 5 rounds in it and you don't just clear your jam, drop your mag and reload like IDPA, USPSA, and other action games. Tell the action shooters no reloads and they wouldn't like that. I haven't read the rules lately but I don't think alibis are allowed in slow fire at all.
Yes, they are.  See sections 9.14, 10.9, 10.10 in the current rule book.  It does not come up very often, but it can happen.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Slartybartfast on 9/17/2018, 8:28 am

Allgoodhits wrote:Change the Rule Book.

As a technical writer by trade, and a rules wonk in everything I get involved with reading the NRA rulesbooks gives me hives. I've participated in a few threads on the rules. Won't repeat the errors and ommissions I've found.
But what is really needed is simplified guides that give simple step-by-step instructions for each person involved in the match.

orpheoet wrote:I don't think there is anything wrong with the format. I think there are a multitude of things wrong with the governing body primarily if not disinterest, certainly the most cursory of attention.
I shoot a USPSA match and my scores are up on Practiscore usually by the end of the night. I earn DR points they might show up 6 months to a year later.

That sure seems to be a huge part of the problem. With the resources of a national organisation, Practiscore should be supported to include all the NRA disciplines.
Other suggestions:
A small investment in a digital camera set-up could make scoring quick using something like TargetScan App (https://targetshootingapp.com/).
Stop being so damned stingy about targets and put up a new targets for every scored course of fire. Take down, put up, give target to scorer. Stickers with competitor's info and a QR code for the scoring app to read and scoring should be a breeze.
Competition issued commercial ammo only.
Stock pistol only divisions.
...
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by chopper on 9/17/2018, 9:36 am

cdrt wrote:
chopper wrote:Bullseye is based on shooting with one hand only, you only get one mag with 5 rounds in it and you don't just clear your jam, drop your mag and reload like IDPA, USPSA, and other action games. Tell the action shooters no reloads and they wouldn't like that. I haven't read the rules lately but I don't think alibis are allowed in slow fire at all.
Yes, they are.  See sections 9.14, 10.9, 10.10 in the current rule book.  It does not come up very often, but it can happen.
  cdrt, thanks for showing the rules, you're right, and it doesn't come up very often. I'm still trying to decypher whether or not, if you attempt to clear your jam in slow fire and can't, will the RO give you a refire when you finally raise your hand. Is this like in rule 10.10a also how do they determine equal amount of time.

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by weber1b on 9/17/2018, 10:36 am

chopper wrote:
cdrt wrote:
chopper wrote:Bullseye is based on shooting with one hand only, you only get one mag with 5 rounds in it and you don't just clear your jam, drop your mag and reload like IDPA, USPSA, and other action games. Tell the action shooters no reloads and they wouldn't like that. I haven't read the rules lately but I don't think alibis are allowed in slow fire at all.
Yes, they are.  See sections 9.14, 10.9, 10.10 in the current rule book.  It does not come up very often, but it can happen.
  cdrt, thanks for showing the rules, you're right, and it doesn't come up very often. I'm still trying to decypher whether or not, if you attempt to clear your jam in slow fire and can't, will the RO give you a refire when you finally raise your hand. Is this like in rule 10.10a also how do they determine equal amount of time.
"Alibi's" in slow fire occur when there is a complete gun failure. You might get an allowance for a stuck round if it takes extraordinary effort to clear. Extra time will be allowed to either fix the problem or bring a replacement to the line. The amount of time is at the judgement of the official or range officer. Simple misfeeds, failure to eject and the like are the responsibility of the shooter. The issue is brought to the attention of the range officer when it happens, not at the end of the ten minutes. If you wait to let them know of your issue you are out of luck.

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Toz35m on 9/17/2018, 3:40 pm

Neil308 wrote:3. fix "keep the match moving" I agree.  Score your target and put a new one up, walk back and be ready to shoot with out wasting time.   27 targets times the extra 2-3 mins = 54-81mins

I am normally the first person back from scoring and sit and watch others still scoring.  I would say the average is close to 2 mins of waiting.  I do not think many realize we could finish up an hour sooner if we go down and score and get back.  

20 yrs from now I will be on of those still down range scoring while some younger shooter is waiting for me.

The main reason I have heard from others who do not want to shoot outdoor 2700's is it takes too long.  We have indoor 2700's 22 only which are fast enough we do not need to have a lunch break.  We shoot and hold targets until the end and then score and take a 15min break.  The match takes about 3.5 hours.

Electronic targets would speed things up.  If the pace were kept to about an hour for 90 shots and then a 15 min break I do not think it would get too tiring.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by weber1b on 9/17/2018, 4:10 pm

One concern I have heard about going to electronic targets is that compressing the shooting could tire folks out, but eliminating the walking might be a nice offset to that. I too am one who is usually back early and generally make it a point to take a seat during the wait for the slowpokes, who often are always the same people.

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by sbtzc on 9/17/2018, 4:30 pm

I'm don't understand the need to finish a 2700 in the shortest amount of time. There is usually at least one novice, one old guy/gal and one mathematicaly challenged shooter at a match. If you rush any of those folks, it takes even more time. They get frustrated. You get frustrated. Everybody's scores drop. Folks get discouraged and quit shooting mataches,... and the sport dies.

Bullseye is supposed to be fun. The fun is in the journey, not the destination.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Allgoodhits on 9/17/2018, 5:20 pm

john bickar wrote:Allgoodhits, some interesting ideas. I like the "no math on the scoring line" idea.

An experienced line caller can keep the match moving without making the shooters feel rushed. And I think that if you cut the commands down, you're going to have a safety issue with newer shooters, and make experienced shooters feel rushed. It's not the 40 seconds between "the range is clear, you may approach the bench and handle your guns" and "ready on the firing line" that makes a 2700 take 9 hours. It's all the other "1 minute here, 2 minutes there" BS multiplied by 27 (as someone else alluded to).

An outdoor 50- & 25-yard 900 should take no more than 90 minutes.

On the other hand, even during a slow 2700, you get a lot of shooting. Even the best-run highpower rifle matches are 7 hours to shoot 80 shots, and you're doing manual labor for a good chunk of those 7 hours.
Not that it matters, but at the Bianchi Cup when a target is scored and recorded on the score sheet for the competitor to sign, they are only accepting the number of X, 10 s etc. There is no math on the score sheet at that time.

At one of our local BE matches this year, a scorer made a mathematical error on a scoresheet. The stat officer caught it, and approached the competitor. The competitor went ballistic, the stat officer went ballistic, both were asked to go home for the day. Now 6 months later, neither have come back, we will lose an MD over it, and other long time BE shooters. After the fact, I asked the MD and stat officer how they caught the match error. Was it suspect? They said they check the match on ALL score sheets. I then suggested then my have the competitors attempt to do it all, on the line. It takes time, often frustrating, errors, cross outs, initials and the like make some of the score sheets look like an ink blot. Add some rain, and it is even worse.

I think doing, all the math back at the bench, out of the rain or sun is a better approach. Or possibly not doing the math at all. At Bianchi, the score sheet is such that the competitor signs it, and gets a copy. They can add the shot value up, then compare it with the published stats later.

Agree in the 8 months now I have been playing this game, I have seen well run, no nonsense matches, and some which needed a little energizing. Honestly though, it is the competitors that hold up the line more than the MD. 

BE is not for everybody, nor is action pistol. Something can be learned which is valuable from for both, from either.

Martin
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Olde Pilot on 9/17/2018, 5:32 pm

sbtzc: As one of those "old guys/gals" I, and my usual 80 year old scorer, are almost always first back to the bench after scoring. Our slowest guy is 30 years old and an experienced shooter.

As for time it takes for a 2700, have you played golf lately? If you can't allocate the day to a BE 2700, stay at home. I have to drive a minimum of 2 hours to matches and it's worth it to me. I did give up golf!

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by bruce martindale on 9/17/2018, 6:45 pm

I should have titled the post Why most of our club members don't shoot bullseye .  The points l made are , l think, the excuses they make for not learning how to shoot well.

The holes in the ceiling are to their credit.....

I like the idea on rifle type scoring (#x, 10, 9 etc) but it may be just as slow.

Slow scoring is from the new shooters, l wouldn't push them...

Good discussion from all... thanks, Appreciated.

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Jack H on 9/17/2018, 7:46 pm

What's the big deal over the time it takes to score?  It takes the time it takes.  If a noob needs help, help.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Allgoodhits on 9/18/2018, 7:34 am

Jack H wrote:What's the big deal over the time it takes to score?  It takes the time it takes.  If a noob needs help, help.
The topic originator inquired as to why participants are either falling off, not coming out or not coming back. Some of us, who had spoken to others have attempted to share those areas of the game which they find unattractive.  Some of those concerns have been expressed. We can listen and possibly learn, or ignore. These are their feelings about BE/PP.

I agree with many of their comments, but I shoot BE/PP anyway. I am in it for the challenge. Others want to shoot only for the fun or entertainment value. If that be the case, then precision pistol may not be for them, as other shooting games are much more fun and entertaining. Many of our younger shooters are no different from our younger people, they demand immediate gratification. I doubt one will find that in BE/PP.

Martin
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by bruce martindale on 9/18/2018, 1:59 pm

No complaints from me about scoring time...it makes for a nice day out and a chance to regroup ones thoughts. That's one reason I didn't want electronic targets at Perry but it could also prevent losing ones momentum during the lull. I think that is one key difference between training where I do well, and competition where I stumble on CF/45.

The competitors in my area are dedicated, problem is clubs that have or had meets, are not and we are losing venues b/c we have little local participation. 

I will attempt short course, short duration, low/no cost matches to drum up support and participation 
Thanks

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Slartybartfast on 9/18/2018, 4:06 pm

Seems that any competitive format that wants to increase participation needs to increase events and venues.
Encouragement/rewards for people who have experience directing matches to help run matches at clubs without experienced match officials might help get the ball rolling.
With no experience with matches it's a little daunting to try and figure out how to start one up.
Even without help from an actual person, there's a lot that could be done to help people train and to run matches.
Has anyone created the customization for the 25m Pistol Timer APP with bullseye commands?
With a supply of score cards, targets, timer app with all courses of fire, and a simple to follow instruction sheet anyone could hold a league night or a match.
I might get round to it. But I'm lazy...
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Aprilian on 9/18/2018, 5:14 pm

I'm calling my first match this weekend - an 1800 fun match.   Reading this thread gave me an idea to print up some scoring tabulation sheets to ask newbies to try.

How do I post my draft Xcel scoresheet for everyone to "shoot holes in"?
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by RustyJoints on 9/18/2018, 6:27 pm

I have noticed at some matches that match directors assign positions based on classification. I think this inadvertently adds to the scoring time as you now have the guys with the least experience scoring the targets with the most misses.
I think if shooters were arranged in an alternating fashion not only would the newer shooters have easier targets to score and add they would benefit by shooting beside experienced shooters who could guide them through their first match problems.
I know some matches are first come first served choose a position but even those could suggest an inexperienced shooter pair with an old timer.
I know when I started I learned the most in matches where I was fortunate enough to shoot next to someone who was experienced.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by funshoot on 9/23/2018, 11:59 am

CR10X wrote:There are lots of reasons not to shoot "Bullseye" Precision Pistol.   

The only one YOU can fix is making a match available.  All the rest of the reasons belong to other people.  You can't fix them. 

There are lots of reasons to shoot "Bullseye" Precision Pistol.

The one that really counts is that's because YOU want to.  YOU can't make someone else want to, YOU can only provide the opportunity and encouragement.

Everything else is pretty much just excuses, decoration or personal preference.  

CR

+100

Also true of any participant activity. I've lost track of the number of folks telling me they can't afford to shoot a match after showing or telling me about the large number of firearms they possess.

One thing the NRA and all shooting organizations are guilty of is failing to provide real service and help for local clubs/ranges/groups putting on events. Public affairs, press releases, contacting local media, websites, etc. are all things that can be done remotely and something all shooting organizations should be providing for dues-paying clubs and members.

- John

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Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by artiesea on 9/23/2018, 7:10 pm

All, bullseye, or precision pistol is an established game with well defined rules and an achievement ladder providing competition and national recognition.  I agree not many people, especially youngsters, want to shoot it for all of the reasons listed, but this is not a reason to change the game.  If we think we can create another game involving precision placement of one, two, three or more calibers of pistol using one hand or even two, let's get together a group under the NRA's or some other organization's aegis and create a more dynamic game for those who want it.  But let's leave bullseye alone for those of us who enjoy the challenge.  I would hate to see our day-long shoots comprising a 2700, Reeves Revolver, Distinguished Revolver and EIC matches disappear in favor of something less rigorous. rdc
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by CR10X on 9/23/2018, 7:53 pm

Does anyone, even on this list, actually read the rule book and understand the types of matches, formats, guns and options already available to have NRA sanctioned matches?  

You can have a NRA approved match and shoot just a NMC, or 900 or combination at different yardages, specific calibers like .22 only, restricted to specific groups, one hand or 2 Probationary, etc. etc. etc.  Just make sure you have the correct targets for the distance, use the appropriate times and the pertinent rules.   

Just get on with it and put on a match.  You don't have to think that hard about some new idea or even change much of anything suggested and still get approved.  So get started, see what you can do and who shows up. They will actually be very helpful in helping you set up a match.  And if not, just drop me a message and I'll help you set up your application (actually the draft match program that is submitted) to describe the match you want to submit.   

I've already posted a script of commands for standard 900 Aggregate (which includes the NMC), scoring programs, etc. in other topics. Lots of other Match Directors are also available with information.  Just ask something specific.   

CR

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by john bickar on 9/23/2018, 8:52 pm

CR10X wrote:Just get on with it and put on a match.

Yeah. Do this.

Please do this.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Ed Hall on 9/23/2018, 9:33 pm

CR10X wrote:Does anyone, even on this list, actually read the rule book and understand the types of matches, formats, guns and options already available to have NRA sanctioned matches?
...
CR
Raises hand... (well, I read it, anyway)...

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Ed Hall on 9/23/2018, 9:36 pm

john bickar wrote:
CR10X wrote:Just get on with it and put on a match.

Yeah. Do this.

Please do this.
We do.  You never show up.  We even just held our portion of the State match and you weren't there, and neither were a lot of others...  Razz

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