Reasons not to shoot bullseye

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Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by bruce martindale on 9/15/2018, 10:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

why our sport is dying, ways to fix it.

1 cost: l suspect a lot of people , especially those are aren't good shooters yet, would object to spending $50 for a day of shooting.
Fix...no NRA registration or payout, shoot for $5 or so? Cover costs.

2 50 yards is too far
Fix... make it a short course 25 yards

3 time.  It takes too long. Few people have all day to spend

Fix ...make it a 600. 22 plus cf. popular elsewhere, quick and easy
Fix 2...make it a 900, all 22 for some, 3 nmc  with 22 and centerfire sets
Fix 3. Occasional 1800 with two 900s. Add occasional 50 yd target

Maybe build up from fix 1 to fix 3 as the season goes?


4 special equipment and ammo: they don't have it.
Fix... 22s are perfect, revolvers are out of the box, common, stock guns or keep it all at short range. Hard to enforce stock with 1911 

5 they can't ever win

Fix...hmm ... prizes, nothing expensive, but base on say high target of the day, or random drawing?

6 range support staff.
Fix... buddy system for safety, caller also shoots. Scoring work can be distributed to shooters to sum up. Or leader board it as we go.


We are having success with short range pin and plate shoots, no holsters. Any gun.

Let me know your thoughts, hope it helps

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by john bickar on 9/23/2018, 9:47 pm

CR10X wrote:Does anyone, even on this list, actually read the rule book...

I was elected to lead, not to read.
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by john bickar on 9/23/2018, 9:54 pm

Ed Hall wrote:
john bickar wrote:
CR10X wrote:Just get on with it and put on a match.

Yeah. Do this.

Please do this.
We do.  You never show up.  We even just held our portion of the State match and you weren't there, and neither were a lot of others...  Razz

Of course, Ed! Now this is all MY fault!

Yet at our matches we've never seen you, hmmm?

Wink
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by TexasShooter on 9/23/2018, 11:16 pm

john bickar wrote:
CR10X wrote:Just get on with it and put on a match.

Yeah. Do this.

Please do this.

A couple of pretty smart guys right there...  Smile

We started with static targets at 25 yds (using reduced targets to simulate 50), an air horn to start and stop, and a match director who had only seen one match (didn't shoot in it, just watched). We're in our 5th year now and have improved things quite a bit but what we started with was fine. We don't draw huge numbers of competitors and that's ok - west Texas is a long way from anywhere so about all we we're going to see are our local shooters. We run an approved match every month, have a dedicated group of 10-15 shooters, we're solid and slowly growing.

You don't need much to start a program - a place to shoot, something to hang targets on, and someone that doesn't mind reading off a script.

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by CR10X on 9/24/2018, 5:41 am

Ed, sorry I didn't make it.  Running our match, hurricane, flood, some range work, and the minor 14 hour drive are only minimal excuses. Smile I'll get there eventually as one of my bucket list items is shooting a match in every state that has one.  

CR

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Ed Hall on 9/24/2018, 2:49 pm

john bickar wrote:

Of course, Ed! Now this is all MY fault!

Yet at our matches we've never seen you, hmmm?

Wink
Everyone knows it's easier to travel east than west - for CA to NY, just jump up in the air and let the earth spin for three hours. I must confess, though, other than Perry, I've shot BE no further west than West VA, (because I'd have to stay up for 21 hours). Rolling Eyes

CR10X wrote:Ed, sorry I didn't make it.  Running our match, hurricane, flood, some range work, and the minor 14 hour drive are only minimal excuses. Smile I'll get there eventually as one of my bucket list items is shooting a match in every state that has one.  

CR
If I didn't live up here, I probably wouldn't shoot it, either.  I have made yours a time or two, but that was due to traveling through.  I hope Florence was kind to you and yours.

I must admit to being a little bit out of the way in our location and trying to fit two outdoor matches into three weeks of summer is tight.  So I'll cut you out-of-staters some slack.  The ones that disappoint me are the locals...

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by artiesea on 9/24/2018, 5:01 pm

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that a full 2700 at both yardages was the only way to shoot Bullseye at present.  At my club, we shoot 25 yard-only 2700s during inclement weather and our indoor Winter League matches are mostly NMC because most of the clubs we compete with have short lines, so it takes more time to accommodate all shooters.  We do allow .22 shooters to shoot alongside Center Fire and .45 shooters at all of our 2700 matches.  As for new blood, I started shooting at my current club and league 11 years ago, and, although we still have a pretty full line, I am the only one left of the shooters I started with.  The rest are all new, and considerable younger than I am.  I don't think the game is dying, it's just small. 
As I have aged I have done what many whose vision and steadiness have failed, and that is become a shotgunner!  However I continue to officiate at our matches, and have developed a routine for calling that keeps things moving.  One of the key features is to not turn targets back to "face" after timed or rapid fire until I release shooters to go downrange.  Amazing how much quicker everyone secures their position if they can't look at the target!. rdc
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Olde Pilot on 9/24/2018, 5:17 pm

Not facing the targets until shooters are cleared to go downrange does move things along a bit. At Mid-Carolina Gun Club, the targets are not faced at all after firing! Closeness of the berm to target holders means targets need to be scored in the edged position.

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Fotomaniac on 9/26/2018, 9:33 am

Sorry OP, but the reason I got into Precision Pistol aka Bullseye was because of the challenges. We see new shooters trying this sport all the time. I feel the way to get them in is to encourage and engage them. Too often I see curmudgeons in this sport, and others who do not, or will not take the time to talk and advise and encourage the new BE shooter, and that discourages them. This discipline takes years of diligent practice and focus. Add to this the investment required in time, and proper equipment and it can be a daunting sport. But with the proper nurturing is very rewarding. Also, many ranges just don’t want to accommodate the BE shooter, either they don’t have turning targets, timers, or experienced personnel. And they don’t care.
There are many courses of fire to accommodate those with time restraints ...short courses, gallery courses, league matches, 900 matches etc. These all can serve to entice newer shooters into the sport gradually, but especially when you get them involved by having a truly positive experience and attitude throughout. That I feel is the key.
I have witnessed the “Old Boys” network of Bullseye in action at numerous clubs and frankly ignore it because I have so many friends in the sport. But I have seen it turn people off.
Today’s youth, and even the 20-30 something’s will not tolerate the clicks and snobbery and will just walk away. When anyone shows the interest, grab them and encourage them. One they get the bug, your club and the sport will grow by leaps and bounds. YMMV

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Chris Miceli on 9/26/2018, 11:41 am

Fotomaniac wrote:Sorry OP, but the reason I got into Precision Pistol aka Bullseye was because of the challenges.  We see new shooters trying this sport all the time.  I feel the way to get them in is to encourage and engage them.  Too often I see curmudgeons in this sport, and others who do not, or will not take the time to talk and advise and encourage the new BE shooter, and that discourages them.  This discipline takes years of diligent practice and focus.  Add to this the investment required in time, and proper equipment and it can be a daunting sport.  But with the proper nurturing is very rewarding.  Also, many ranges just don’t want to accommodate the BE shooter, either they don’t have turning targets, timers, or experienced personnel. And they don’t care.  
There are many courses of fire to accommodate those with time restraints ...short courses, gallery courses, league matches, 900 matches etc.  These all can serve to entice newer shooters into the sport gradually, but especially when you get them involved by having a truly positive experience and attitude throughout.  That I feel is the key.  
I have witnessed the “Old Boys” network of Bullseye in action at numerous clubs and frankly ignore it because I have so many friends in the sport.  But I have seen it turn people off.
Today’s youth, and even the 20-30 something’s will not tolerate the clicks and snobbery and will just walk away.  When anyone shows the interest, grab them and encourage them.  One they get the bug, your club and the sport will grow by leaps and bounds. YMMV
+1 people who like a challange shoot bullseye those that like easy targets shoot bunker trap...lamers i say
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by bruce martindale on 9/26/2018, 8:29 pm

I am challenged by this sport and stuck with this sport for decades but if the matches disappear from area clubs, it won't matter. Eeven as Ed points out, his recent match turnout was low, but I was there. I teach, coach, and advise but like l said, getting the invisible people to show up is a trick,  hence l proposed those things to mitigate their fear and get them started. When I meet them, then I can help them.

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by PhotoEscape on 9/26/2018, 9:08 pm

I suggest to look into issue from a little bit different angle.  This country was born when Englishmen came to take our ball and powder!!  At that time it meant that families would not be able to put meals on the table, and at that time kids grew up learning skill of shooting from very early age.  Fast forward by about 250 years, - kids are taught in schools that guns are bad, all guns outright without exception!  So it is not difficulties of BE as a shooting discipline, but it is rather cultural shift that drives participation in all shooting disciplines down.  The only fix to that IMO is getting back to our roots, and re-establish culture of appreciation the ability to use firearms for good causes, and teach our kids value of life, both human or animal, as opposed to indoctrinating them that guns only good to kill indiscriminately. 
AP


Last edited by PhotoEscape on 9/28/2018, 1:23 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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more of the same

Post by r.tornello on 9/27/2018, 9:55 pm

I used to shoot in a league here in the WDC area. It works pretty well as I remember. We ran 22s except in the summer when it opened up to CF. We met on Mondays, paid our dues and it worked. We had team and each team had range duty in a selected order. They could shoot if they wanted to also. I also volunteered for a officers' position to assist. This was all volunteer.

Now how does that address some of the stated issues? I'm really not sure except to suggest each group work with what exists and then see who else out there might be able to lend suggestions based upon experience. Some of the bigger clubs might even be willing to send a rep to talk to people say in a recruitment drive.

Not everybody can afford a Pardini or a FWB. They don't need to in a handicap, bowling with 22 bullets sort of arrangement. And if there is not a 50 yard capability, then use the smaller targets. Just get the people out there and don't scare them away with over the top reloading talk, or fancy expansive gun talk.

Guns scare people. And yes they are weapons. Keep the political talk to a minimum. But in a pleasant range and contest environment where the prize is a rusty nail, it could be a lot of fun. Invite a friend or two or even someone you don't like. You never know, it might be an ice breaker.

Sincerely,

Rick Tornello
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Try this approach

Post by r.tornello on 9/27/2018, 10:03 pm

The Zen of It.
 
By, RdotTornello © 2016
&
The Village idiot Press
 
______________________________
 
It’s an elegantly simple machine, designed to do one thing and do it well.
 
I inhale and exhale. I feel my heartbeat through my clothes, hands, skull and eyes.
 
As I position myself I think of my eyes, the refractors I’m wearing and I clearly remember years ago when I was a kid, in my friend’s basement with a 22 repeater. His dad was there to supervise. I was legally blind, 20/400 and too proud to wear glasses and be called 4 eyes. I couldn’t even see a softball heading straight for me. I played left out most of the time. And pride comes before the fall. Or, in the case of school, bad grades and ridicule.
 
Silly ignorant prideful kid, but still I shot that silver quarter from 50 feet. I sensed its position and hit it dead center. There was something about a rifle in my hands that just felt right. It would be the same for a competition pistol years later.
 
Since my dad never allowed weapons in our house, I would have to wait. It would be the same for pistol competition years later and now with this precision tool laying on the rest.
 
In that basement, we had no hearing protection. My ears rang. My head hurt. Still the quarter was mine. I was the only one to hit it.
 
All that runs through my head in an instant as I pick up the first round. I laugh to myself thinking how funny memories run quicker than the actual event, an awake dream; all this in milliseconds of thought.
 
Cancel- cancel
 
The 223 Federal 77 grain is carefully placed in the short action single shot receiver and the bolt pushed forward.
 
I can feel the right hand lug just scrape as the bolt is slowly turned clockwise and locked into position. It’s like driving a racecar where I can feel the movement of the entire vehicle. Here I can feel the metal against metal, and the slight clink of the brass as the round is guided to the chamber and locked in place.
 
The safety is clicked off.
 
I inhale slowly and exhale just as slow.
 
The custom stock is pushed against the stop on the bag as I look down the scope. 55 power lets me see the small X less than 1/8 inch in the center, 100 yards down range, and just as quickly, blurs, my heart is beating faster. Some how that beat causes me to lose the clarity I just had.
 
I used to be able to slow it down to about 55 beats a minute. But that’s when I trained 4 or 5 days a week with a pistol. And that was over 13 years ago.
 
Age, and a‘nuff said about that.
 
I sit up… finger off the trigger guard, safety clicked on and I wait until I feel that calmness come over me. And then on to the raised cheek piece I lay my right cheek my eye level with the scope. The scope is focused, the crosshairs clear. My heartbeat is transmitted through my chest and hands to the stock, through the steel and the photons back into my eye. I know that my brain registers the visual site about 1/8 of a second after the photons hit my retina and passed on to be processed by my brain. I accept the picture. It’s a time delay that everybody has. It’s the way it is.
 
I know to force the action is to have, not to have.
My finger slides off the guard to the trigger. The feel is right.
 
I inhale and exhale. Inhale and exhale slowly and an increase in pressure, slight, smooth, no thought, it just is and crack/surprise. The first shot of the day is away. My head stays on the stock for a few more seconds. My mind is clear.
 
The suppressor does its job. Hearing loss is permanent. I wonder about the harmonics of the barrel the projectile and the suppressor. The suppressor causes the projectile to drop 3 inches for the same distance as opposed to when it’s not attached. It’s an interesting observation. I’m not sure if it’s energy absorbed causing the drop or for some reason the trajectory is flatter and the site requires that resetting.
 
Cancel-cancel.
 
Center right, less than the diameter of the projectile, just above dead center.
 
I leave the windage and elevation adjustments alone. Let’s see if I can duplicate this and if so then I know, a fine tune is just a click or two.
away. But then I think, I won’t be able to see the center if it’s shot away. Leave it.
 
The bolt is turned, I feel the release from the locked position as I lift the arm and pull back. The spent brass is ejected. The sound of the spent brass hitting the wall and floor can be heard. When I’m the only one at the range all the sounds can be heard. The totality of it is just that, encompassing and total.
 
I sit up and relax. Another round is taken from the box. I feel it in my fingers. It has no imperfections that I can tell.  
 
I look it over and, I look at the weapon. It’s so simple. A chemical reaction takes place, a projectile is propelled at roughly 2700 feet per second down the steel barrel with 1265 foot pound of energy. I hold it until its warm and I place it in the action.
 
 
And I repeat the act again. Breath control, hand control, mind control, mind control, exhale, surprise, follow through, eject… and to myself a smile. My body relaxes with a deep slow inhale and exhale.
 
I check my heartbeat. It’s about 60 beats per minute. Shoot between the beats. ‘Rock and roll’, the thought runs through my brain and I almost start to laugh.
 
Cancel-cancel.
 
No need to shoot fast. It just heats the barrel up and that has an effect on accuracy. No need to shoot fast, I can purchase fireworks if I wanted to make a lot of quick noise.
 
5 shots, and I disengage the bolt from the receiver and unscrew the suppressor. It’s hot, real hot.  I brush the loose brass filings from the bolt face. I Insert the bore guide and run a few patches to clean the bore, allowing the barrel cool and keep the precision in my shots.
 
Smile.
 
An hour of this and I use maybe 20 to 30 rounds in groups of 5. Know when it’s time to stop. Sometimes when I don’t the rushed and hurried results are quickly visible.
 
Clean, pack, and sweep my area and then wash.
 
The ride home is calm, no need to speed.
In hale, exhale. I’m aware of the sound of the tires and the slight wind noise from closed the driver’s window.
 
Perfection? Not even close. And I laugh at the thought.
 
 
Where are the revenue enhancing radar pickets today? Ah yes, I wave and they wave back.
 
END
 
 
 

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by Ed Hall on 9/28/2018, 10:27 am

r.tornello wrote:I used to shoot in a league here in the WDC area. It works pretty well as I remember. We ran 22s except in the summer when it opened up to CF. We met on Mondays, paid our dues and it worked. We had team and each team had range duty in a selected order. They could shoot if they wanted to also. I also volunteered for a officers' position to assist. This was all volunteer.

...
Sounds like the Metropolitan Pistol League at NRA HQ.  I used to shoot in that regularly when it existed in a basement level of the old building in downtown D.C. It was fired over lunch in those days.  When NRA moved to its present location the league moved to Monday nights.  Whenever I'm in the area I try to make it to the league, but unfortunately, that's become quite a bit more rare in recent times.

On the other side of the topic, we have an active Indoor league (50 ft) that is purely for fun in the village where I live now.  No dues, other than club and indoor range membership, .22 only and is shot by NRA rules** on an inexpensive turning target system based on one of the DIY projects on my site.  The scores are recorded and placed on line with only initials, so shooters can post semi-anonymously.  Scores range from pretty low to pretty high, with some happy to see 600 and others excited to see 800.  There's a little personal rivalry, but not much.

Sometimes, we are able to get some new shooters in our other events from the league populace, but many are just there to have fun on Tuesday evening.  Some travel for more than an hour, one way, to fire 90 rounds.  Some look forward to dinner on the way home, more than the 90 rounds.  This last spring we had over 20 shooters through the season, although never all at once.  Some of our numbers have moved on to the final league and others are seasonal.  The seasonals will return next year.

Guns are a variety of, Buckmark, Ruger, S&W, Benelli and Hammerli, with Ruger being the more popular.  I think we may have had all the Mark series from I-IV including the 22/45 variant represented.  We had a High Standard 10X on the line until the owner moved on to the final league.

**Although we use the NRA rules, we are lax on some issues.  If someone is leaning on the bench, we explain that it won't be allowed when we run sanctioned events.  If someone clears their gun, we explain how to call for an alibi properly, but still let them refire.  Everyone scores their own targets and only the target totals are summed, unless there's a glaring math error.  There's no real competition and there are no prizes, other than bragging rights.


P.S. Rick, I enjoyed your previous post (The Zen of It).


Last edited by Ed Hall on 9/28/2018, 10:55 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Add Post Script)

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by OldShooter43 on 9/28/2018, 3:58 pm

+1 people who like a challange shoot bullseye those that like easy targets shoot bunker trap...lamers i say

No offense Chris, but I'm betting that you haven't shot much "bunker trap'.  At least not at the International/Olympic level.  Comparing that to PPC/Bullseye shooting is apples to oranges.  Sorry, I just got back online after a week on the road.

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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

Post by tray999 on 9/28/2018, 5:44 pm

Ed Hall wrote:
r.tornello wrote:I used to shoot in a league here in the WDC area. It works pretty well as I remember. We ran 22s except in the summer when it opened up to CF. We met on Mondays, paid our dues and it worked. We had team and each team had range duty in a selected order. They could shoot if they wanted to also. I also volunteered for a officers' position to assist. This was all volunteer.

...
Sounds like the Metropolitan Pistol League at NRA HQ.  I used to shoot in that regularly when it existed in a basement level of the old building in downtown D.C. It was fired over lunch in those days.  When NRA moved to its present location the league moved to Monday nights.  Whenever I'm in the area I try to make it to the league, but unfortunately, that's become quite a bit more rare in recent times.

On the other side of the topic, we have an active Indoor league (50 ft) that is purely for fun in the village where I live now.  No dues, other than club and indoor range membership, .22 only and is shot by NRA rules** on an inexpensive turning target system based on one of the DIY projects on my site.  The scores are recorded and placed on line with only initials, so shooters can post semi-anonymously.  Scores range from pretty low to pretty high, with some happy to see 600 and others excited to see 800.  There's a little personal rivalry, but not much.

Sometimes, we are able to get some new shooters in our other events from the league populace, but many are just there to have fun on Tuesday evening.  Some travel for more than an hour, one way, to fire 90 rounds.  Some look forward to dinner on the way home, more than the 90 rounds.  This last spring we had over 20 shooters through the season, although never all at once.  Some of our numbers have moved on to the final league and others are seasonal.  The seasonals will return next year.

Guns are a variety of, Buckmark, Ruger, S&W, Benelli and Hammerli, with Ruger being the more popular.  I think we may have had all the Mark series from I-IV including the 22/45 variant represented.  We had a High Standard 10X on the line until the owner moved on to the final league.

**Although we use the NRA rules, we are lax on some issues.  If someone is leaning on the bench, we explain that it won't be allowed when we run sanctioned events.  If someone clears their gun, we explain how to call for an alibi properly, but still let them refire.  Everyone scores their own targets and only the target totals are summed, unless there's a glaring math error.  There's no real competition and there are no prizes, other than bragging rights.


P.S. Rick, I enjoyed your previous post (The Zen of It).

I currently shoot in the MPL and it is a great Bullseye league.   Very well run, with great leadership.   The members are always very welcoming to new shooters and everyone attempts to help them get started.   My 23 year old son shoots in the league and he LOVES IT!!!
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Re: Reasons not to shoot bullseye

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