9mm case sizing

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9mm case sizing

Post by spyer40 on 9/22/2018, 11:58 am

9mm mixed brass
115 Zero JHP
Dillon 650
Dillon carbide dies

Been loading 9mm for a while with no issues.  Occasionally would have some rounds that would not fully chamber in a Ruger PC9 but otherwise no problems in various other 9mm like Shadow 2, Wilson EDC, and others.  Just picked up a SA RO Elite in 9mm and had several that won't fully chamber.  Reading that Dillon sizing/decapping dies are pretty wide at the base which causes problems with tight chambers? Some threads say have the chamber reamed others say use a different die (including a Lee U undersized die?).  Need to do some measuring but wondering what dies people on here are using.

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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by JIMPGOV on 9/22/2018, 12:01 pm

http://casepro100.com/

THIS IS WHAT I USE..JP

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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by Chris Miceli on 9/22/2018, 1:22 pm

JIMPGOV wrote:http://casepro100.com/

THIS IS WHAT I USE..JP
Which Presses and auto drives you using these days ?
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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by JIMPGOV on 9/22/2018, 3:17 pm

DILLON RL1050'S WITH THE MARK7 AUTO DRIVES. THE MARK 7 AUTO DRIVES ARE THE CATS MEOW.


THE CASEPRO 100 REALLY HELPS WITH THE ACCURACY WHEN USING JACKED BULLETS AND USED BRASS. DOESN'T MEAN A THING IF USING LEAD. EXCEPT THE LOADING PRESS RUNS A LOT SMOOTHER WITH THE ROLL SIZED BRASS.

I DON'T KNOW HOW TO POST A 11 SEC VIDEO I HAVE OF THE AUTO DRIVE IN USE. PM ME YOUR PHONE # AND I'LL SEND IT TO YOU. FEEL FREE TP POST IT IF YOU LIKE. JP

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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by robert84010 on 9/22/2018, 4:07 pm

well there is no need for a 900 dollar sizer to reload 9mm. 

Have you ensured that your round is less than the minimum chamber length. I think some people here have found the SA chamber short, which is different than tight.

I'm willing to bet a SA 9mm is no tighter than my Kidd Beretta, or the KKM match barrel I have,  and I use a Dillon die to reload for them. 

I did have to use a little more bell on the case to ensure the bullet seated PERFECTLY straight before seating or I did have some bulged cases which would not chamber fully. No problem with the base of the case though, the middle was bulging due to the bullet canting.

You might also want to try one brand of brass at a time to see if you eliminate a brand giving you the problem.

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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by Jon Eulette on 9/22/2018, 4:22 pm

The 9mm RO barrel has headspace around 0.760” which is pretty good. The lead angle though I believe is not friendly to all bullets. You should check how far you can seat a bullet out and have it still chamber. I’ve seen shooters seat them too far out and it will cause issues.
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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by PhotoEscape on 9/22/2018, 8:47 pm

I'm using Lee Carbide sizers  for pretty much all handgun calibers on my XL650 presses.  I have spare RO barrel that I use as a gage when it comes to reloading 9mm.  RO and CZs have strictest requirements for OAL (CAL) of the round.  So if it fits RO chamber, probability of having issues with chambering round is minimal.
AP
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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by BE Mike on 9/23/2018, 8:11 am

I had similar problems once in a while. I switched to a Lee Factory Crimp die in my Dillon 550. So far, no problems.
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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by dronning on 9/23/2018, 9:53 am

BE Mike wrote:I had similar problems once in a while. I switched to a Lee Factory Crimp die in my Dillon 550. So far, no problems.
+1 in my 550(s) & 1050
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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by Steve K on 9/23/2018, 11:46 am

Like other reloaders I had problems with my RO 9MM ammo. The chamber is very tight and my solution was to use the Lee U undersized die. However, since using this die slows the process down on the Dillon 550 I also lube the cases which makes the press run smoothly.

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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by robert84010 on 9/23/2018, 1:55 pm

well I guess i'm just skeptical. You are trying to say that SA puts a tight chamber on a loose fitting barrel? Makes absolutely no sense. Everyone that has one of these, and my gunsmith has seen, that these barrels are loose fitted. Even a .200 pin does not make them hard fitted but somehow they put a tight chamber in them. Most people that want to try and make them shoot install a match barrel. My KKM barrel is even shorter than most, I have to put a 115 XTP at 1.090" instead of 1.15" to ensure being short of the lands. 

Does anybody have a problem using factory ammo in these supposedly tight SA chambers?

Maybe the original poster can do what I did and reload 100 rounds as usual and chamber check them. Or whatever amount you feel is a good sample size to see the problem. I found in every 100 I always had a problem. Then size only the same amount of cases and chamber check them. This will tell if it's a sizing problem or a bullet seating problem. Using a Dillon die installed just off the plate easily resizes the base down to fit match chambers. My test made it clear where the problem lay. I've not had one problem since determining I was sloppily seating the bullet.

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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by Chris Miceli on 9/23/2018, 2:25 pm

robert84010 wrote:well I guess i'm just skeptical. You are trying to say that SA puts a tight chamber on a loose fitting barrel? Makes absolutely no sense. Everyone that has one of these, and my gunsmith has seen, that these barrels are loose fitted. Even a .200 pin does not make them hard fitted but somehow they put a tight chamber in them. Most people that want to try and make them shoot install a match barrel. My KKM barrel is even shorter than most, I have to put a 115 XTP at 1.090" instead of 1.15" to ensure being short of the lands. 

Does anybody have a problem using factory ammo in these supposedly tight SA chambers?

Maybe the original poster can do what I did and reload 100 rounds as usual and chamber check them. Or whatever amount you feel is a good sample size to see the problem. I found in every 100 I always had a problem. Then size only the same amount of cases and chamber check them. This will tell if it's a sizing problem or a bullet seating problem. Using a Dillon die installed just off the plate easily resizes the base down to fit match chambers. My test made it clear where the problem lay. I've not had one problem since determining I was sloppily seating the bullet.
+1 
maybe the OP has glock brass?
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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by PhotoEscape on 9/23/2018, 3:04 pm

There are three hints in this thread pointing to stricter requirements implied by RO chamber. 
1. The most important one is stated by Mr. Eulette - "The lead angle though I believe is not friendly to all bullets."
2. Crimping - as stated by BE Mike and Mr. Ronning, and it has correlation to the #1
3. Case sizing and bullet seating depth in general.

Here is the best illustration I can offer - I loaded Berry's 147gr FP at 1.10".  It would not fit into any of my 9mm CZs (P01, SP01, 75B) and three 9mm RO barrels.  However I had no issues fitting this load in any other 9mm chambered firearm, including half a dozen of Glocks (sorry, Chris, I could not resist Smile>).  Only after I dropped OAL down to 1.06", RO and CZs became happy again.   That's why ever since I'm using one of the spare RO 9mm barrels as a gage, - if resulting round fits in it, it will fit in other barrels too. 

Not to be argumentative here, but TMBK barrel to slide fit has no correlation to tightness of the chamber.  Chamber is being reamed by CNC, while fitting is done (or not) during final assembly by human.  RO, being low end (just compare price with properly fitted firearm) gun with adjustable sights, after all not far from Mil-Spec, and designed to shoot toward target as opposed to in the same spot on the target .

Also, please remember, that OP asked what dies folks are using.
AP


Last edited by PhotoEscape on 9/23/2018, 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : adding)
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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by robert84010 on 9/23/2018, 4:34 pm

oh your talking about a Glock as being the standard, silly me, I thought I was on a bullseye forum. 

I'll log off so I don't break my my keyboard.

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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by kidneyboy on 9/23/2018, 4:57 pm

robert84010 wrote:well there is no need for a 900 dollar sizer to reload 9mm. 

Have you ensured that your round is less than the minimum chamber length. I think some people here have found the SA chamber short, which is different than tight.

I'm willing to bet a SA 9mm is no tighter than my Kidd Beretta, or the KKM match barrel I have,  and I use a Dillon die to reload for them. 

I did have to use a little more bell on the case to ensure the bullet seated PERFECTLY straight before seating or I did have some bulged cases which would not chamber fully. No problem with the base of the case though, the middle was bulging due to the bullet canting.

You might also want to try one brand of brass at a time to see if you eliminate a brand giving you the problem.

My first thought was - do a plunk test then make sure it chambers from the magazine. Oh, and +1 on using the Lee crimp die.

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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by Jon Eulette on 9/23/2018, 5:08 pm

robert84010 wrote:oh your talking about a Glock as being the standard, silly me, I thought I was on a bullseye forum. 

I'll log off so I don't break my my keyboard.
Ahh come on Robert, he’s harassing Chris whom we all know needs harassment!

By the way I’m under the impression that Glock chambers are fat and can allow brass to stretch out causing problems in BE chambers.
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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by PhotoEscape on 9/23/2018, 6:28 pm

Firstly, and most importantly - thank you Jon for defending me!
Secondly, - I've never said, that RO has tightest chamber.  Please review my posts in this thread for my take on it.

Thirdly, - Robert, I've never said anything about Glock being standard for anything BE related.  That is your assumption, not mine.  I'm including picture of what, I believe, to be close to standard for several shooting disciplines.  I also hope, that you like these SIGs and 952 Smithies, and picture will not cause you breaking your monitor.   AP
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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by spyer40 on 9/23/2018, 7:02 pm

Didn't mean to start such a lively discussion but thanks for all the info.  No Glock brass, no Glock in my house.  Started measuring rounds and not seeing anything that sticks out (pardon the pun).  I stupidly tried the rounds that had issues in my Shadow 2 while there and they chambered/went bang so I don't have them to check now.  Haven't had a chance yet to takedown the RO and just go through rounds doing the plunk test till I find some more problematic rounds then sharpie/see if they are too long as Jon suggested.  Does anyone use a bullet comparator to measure off the ogive?

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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by S148 on 9/24/2018, 4:29 am

Doing the plunk test with a Sharpie is the FIRST thing to do. That will tell you why they don't fit, and what needs to be changed. Until then, you're guessing.

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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by LenV on 9/24/2018, 11:46 am

  Ooo Aaaa. Nice collection. But where are the red dots? I think if you want to set the standard for Bullseye you have to drill and tap all those beauties. You see true fanatics always seem to mess up (add scopes) to their pistols. You might have great eyes and don't need a dot. Most of the records were set with steel sights after all. Well, enough drooling. I should probably comment on the OP. 
  I have a 9mm RO and it eats everything I feed it. There was even a bunch of range brass I put thru it. I did not know there was supposed to be a problem. I use Lee Carbide dies in a Lee progressive press. The barrel is retired now and setting in a drawer. I run all the 9 stuff now thru the 952 or 439 and have never had the problem mentioned in OP. Must be the Lee dies.

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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by spyer40 on 9/24/2018, 7:56 pm

Went through my ammp doing the plunk test and found quite a few rounds that didn't fully chamber.  Smoked up a round and it was binding around the base.  Measured and it was ~.390 close to the base.  Measured the barrel and it's ~3885 at the mouth and down to ~.386 maybe a 1/4" in.  Didn't have time to pull another 9mm out to measure.  Do these dimensions sound correct?  If so will a Lee factory carbide crimp die (or some other) get them to where they need to be?

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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by robert84010 on 9/24/2018, 8:39 pm

PhotoEscape wrote:Firstly, and most importantly - thank you Jon for defending me!
Secondly, - I've never said, that RO has tightest chamber.  Please review my posts in this thread for my take on it.

Thirdly, - Robert, I've never said anything about Glock being standard for anything BE related.  That is your assumption, not mine.  I'm including picture of what, I believe, to be close to standard for several shooting disciplines.  I also hope, that you like these SIGs and 952 Smithies, and picture will not cause you breaking your monitor.   AP



Sure would be nice if you could stop buying stuff long enough to take just one of those and join your fellow Illinois shooters at a match to get an actual classification?? What is a classification of rifleman mean? I'm only a Distinguished Master with the silly things but I must have missed that.

I'm sure you are the man on the collector sites but maybe missed what it says at the top of this homepage: Bullseye Shooting. Take one of those Sig's and place in the top 10% of your local shooters or go to Camp Perry since it is right next door. Earn something with one of those and now you have my attention.

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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by PhotoEscape on 9/24/2018, 9:55 pm

That is why I stated that RO barrel has strictest requirement for the final round, although you need to be rather more accurate in your measurement.  SAAMI specs for 9mm Luger allows for .3910" - see page 36 of this file - https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Z299-3_ANSI-SAAMI_CFPandR.pdf#page=10
Page 141 shows test barrel dimensions, that is pretty much what all manufacturers should size their barrels after.  My RO test barrel has .3905" diameter at the bottom of the cartridge before it angles towards ream.  That is eight tenths below SAAMI spec, while most manufacturers have it on plus side.  However ammunition manufacturers size cartridges at minus from .3910".  In example, Hornady mostly sizes at .3870" - that is minus thirty tenths.  I size mine reloads even more than that - to minus fifty tenths.  And that comes from die that is capable to size cartridge all the way to the bottom.  I'm including pictures to illustrate.
So, to me it looks as your issue is in case sizing. Yes, you can try addressing it with Lee Factory Carbide Crimp die - you need to make sure that it sizes bottom of the case below barrel's mouth diameter, and yet not to over crimp projectile.


AP


Last edited by PhotoEscape on 9/24/2018, 10:32 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : correction)
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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by PhotoEscape on 9/24/2018, 10:13 pm

Robert,  You need to look into history of your and mine country to learn what "rifleman" is, and what AQT abbreviation stands for.  I'll give you clue - https://www.acronymfinder.com/AQT.html.  For the full disclosure - I didn't serve in the US Army.  Otherwise your point is well taken, and shooting at Perry is my stated goal!  I hope, I'm approaching the point when I will have more time, and less money to buy stuff.  So using what I have would be natural extension of what I collected over the years.  Although, I don't think, I'll be using any of the SIGs for BE, - there are other tools available for that.  However, you are absolutely correct, it is not a tool, but hands that use it.  With that you have my respect to your achievement.  So long....,
AP
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Re: 9mm case sizing

Post by spyer40 on 9/25/2018, 9:41 pm

Thanks for all the info.  I went ahead and bought a Lee FCD which does resize all the way to the base and it solved my issue.  Plunk tests are successful and the crimp is where it needs to be.  I do like the way the adjustment for the crimp works better than the Dillon, simpler and easier.  Dillon die has gone back to the pretty blue box to collect dust.

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