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Does anyone know

Post by jmdavis on 11/28/2018, 10:21 am

Can a Service Pistol EIC be shot non-turning and non-electronic targets? It appears that most references to turning targets are not in the 2018 rules. I was informed last night of an EIC match at a range that does not have either turning or electronic targets.
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Re: Does anyone know

Post by john bickar on 11/28/2018, 3:36 pm

I have shot EIC matches (service pistol and .22) on a range that does not have turning targets. I cannot cite the CMP rule, but I seem to recall looking it up and confirming that it was legal.
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Re: Does anyone know

Post by cdrt on 11/28/2018, 9:06 pm

Yes, it's legal.  There is no CMP requirement for turning targets.  Not to confuse the issue, but NRA "registered" matches, like state and regional tournaments require turning targets.  NRA "approved" tournaments do not require turning targets.
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Re: Does anyone know

Post by brassmaster on 12/6/2018, 9:06 pm

At our range we have always had turning targets and years ago, based on the advice of our state's (WV) most noted CMP Pistol Competitor, Ed Williams, we believed turning targets were required for EIC Pistol Matches, without exception, to a fault. On a particular occasion when we had a NRA Bullseye Match and EIC Pistol Match scheduled, upon arrival at the range found that we were experiencing a power failure. Believing that turning targets were required for EIC Pistol Matches, we refunded competitors' CMP Entry Fees and fired a practice match. Imagine my astonishment when I read the posts of John & CDRT stating that turning targets are not required for EIC Pistol Matches. Not really doubting their experienced opinions, yet wanting absolute confirmation, I contacted CMP, raised this question and requested a clarification. I received their response today and here it is:
"According to the current CMP HP Rifle & Pistol Competition Rulebook: http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/Rulebook.pdf?ver=11062018, page 104 the range command Commence Firing is used on Pistol ranges without turning targets for slow fire stages.   It also makes reference to using Commence Fire in the range commands listed on pages 109-111 for rapid fire stages.  So turning targets are not required."
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Re: Does anyone know

Post by john bickar on 12/6/2018, 9:43 pm

brassmaster wrote:Imagine my astonishment when I read the posts of John & CDRT ...Not really doubting their experienced opinions...

Trust, but verify. Smart move on your part.

One of the coaches' courses that I took taught that it was more important to have a rulebook (on hand) than it is to know the rulebook.
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Re: Does anyone know

Post by CR10X on 12/7/2018, 5:33 am

Ed was probably right, at the time.  Background information: In prior years, EIC matches were held in conjunction with Regional or State matches which were Registered NRA matches and therefore required turning targets for the NRA portion of the Tournament. 

As for the EIC matches, CMP rule book did not have the referenced pages or commands that are in the current CMP rule book. The reference commands, etc.,, are a recent revision.    

The earlier CMP rules that ED may have referenced, would not have had those commands.  If I get interested enough, I'll see if I have any old copies of the CMP or NBFPRP rules. 

And the CMP has once again given an opinion that appears to contradict the actual wording of their rules.  Section 3.8 page 21 says: " Pistol firing procedures in CMP-sanctioned matches must be conducted according to CMP Pistol Firing Procedures and Range Commands published as Annex A to these Rules. The Procedures and Range Commands in Annex A, (which starts on page 104 and is the referenced section quoted in the response above) contain the directions "Turn targets to edge" and "Turn targets to face"; in each appropriate section of the commands, with no options or alternative directions.  

Kinda hard to do if there are no turning targets. That would seem to be definite evidence that turning targets are required!

AND the Pistol Competition Event Regulations (page 49) contains the requirement for .22 EIC "If a competitor does not assume or fails to start from a 45-degree start position or lifts the pistol before the targets start to turn, a five (5)-point penalty shall be deducted from the score of the series where the violation occurred." which definitely requires turning targets. 

Seems to require turning targets to me. 

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Re: Does anyone know

Post by james r chapman on 12/7/2018, 6:15 am

Now where's that popcorn emoji!
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Re: Does anyone know

Post by cdrt on 12/7/2018, 7:16 am

Sent an email to the CMP to clarify.  Will let you know the response.
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Re: Does anyone know

Post by dronning on 12/7/2018, 8:03 am

You do not have to have turning targets.  CMP has held several EIC pistol matches at Talladega and the last time I checked those targets don't turn.  There are no exceptions made for electronic targets in the rules, only procedure outlines.

- Dave
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Re: Does anyone know

Post by Slartybartfast on 12/7/2018, 8:18 am

And another thread about rules that makes me roll my eyes.

It always pains me (as I'm a technical writer by trade) how unclear so many rulebooks are.
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Re: Does anyone know

Post by cdrt on 12/7/2018, 8:23 am

Slartybartfast wrote:And another thread about rules that makes me roll my eyes.
It always pains me (as I'm a technical writer by trade) how unclear so many rulebooks are.
I'm curious to see what kind of response I get from the CMP on the email I sent them.  They and the NRA have the same problem; they add something to the rule book without checking other sections to look for errors or inconsistencies.  I'm still waiting for the NRA to fix the errors in the online Precision Pistol Rule Book.
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Re: Does anyone know

Post by CR10X on 12/7/2018, 8:45 am

Just because they did it doesn't mean it was right, or fair to all the other competitors at other matches. 

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Re: Does anyone know

Post by dronning on 12/7/2018, 9:24 am

CR10X wrote:Just because they did it doesn't mean it was right, or fair to all the other competitors at other matches. 

CR
Not sure about the fair comment but since CMP is the governing body they decide whats right.  Plus they have a lot invested in Talladega & the KTS systems, there should have never been any doubt if the the KTS systems would be used for all matches including EIC. 

Both the CMP & NRA need to do a front to back on the rule books.  There have been far too many updates on specific sentences/paragraphs without understanding how that may impact other sections of the rules.

- Dave

Notice from the D-Day matches:
"The Civilian Marksmanship Program would like to invite you to join us for a very special match weekend event at the CMP Talladega Marksmanship Park in Talladega County, Alabama. The matches will include a special John C. Garand Rifle Match, on 9 June, commemorating the 74th anniversary of the Allied Forces D-Day landing at Normandy Beach.  We will also have a Carbine match and the very popular Vintage Sniper Rifle Match.  The event will begin, on 8 June with a Service Rifle EIC Match, a Service Pistol EIC Match and a .22 Rimfire Pistol EIC Match.
Competitors will be firing all matches on electronic targets."
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Re: Does anyone know

Post by CR10X on 12/7/2018, 9:47 am

So when the CMP puts on a match, they can ignore or change the rules but when a CMP match is held locally, we have to abide by the actual wording?  (Note the words "must be conducted in accordance with...,  ...published as Annex A..." in the rules.) 

Anyway, its probably just about the money now.  More matches equals more money for them.  I just wish they would read their own rules or just change them to reduce the confusion.    

So, I'm done pointing out the obvious for today.  I've had a wonderful time again.  No hard feelings and everyone have fun.    

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Re: Does anyone know

Post by cdrt on 12/7/2018, 11:01 am

This is the response I got from the CMP this morning:

According to the current CMP HP Rifle & Pistol Competition Rulebook: http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/Rulebook.pdf?ver=11062018, page 104 the range command Commence Firing is used on Pistol ranges without turning targets for slow fire stages.   It also makes reference to using Commence Fire in the range commands listed on pages 109-111 for rapid fire stages.  So turning targets are not required.
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The CP's Part Line

Post by brassmaster on 12/7/2018, 11:17 am

cdrt wrote:This is the response I got from the CMP this morning:

According to the current CMP HP Rifle & Pistol Competition Rulebook: http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/Rulebook.pdf?ver=11062018, page 104 the range command Commence Firing is used on Pistol ranges without turning targets for slow fire stages.   It also makes reference to using Commence Fire in the range commands listed on pages 109-111 for rapid fire stages.  So turning targets are not required.
This latest clarification/ruling is almost word for word to the response that I received from CMP yesterday, (appears in quotation marks in my previous post) so this is obviously CMP's Party Line on this subject.
-Brassmaster
Ps- somehow I believe this may not be the last word(s) on this subject. Headed to Kroger for some popcorn.
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Re: Does anyone know

Post by CR10X on 12/7/2018, 11:52 am

Sorry, I will quit after this.  

Commands are only part of the requirement according to Annex A:

"The following range procedures and range commands must be used to conduct Service Pistol and 22 Rimfire Pistol events."

But they do provide alternative command "Commence Firing", without explanation. It would be nice for it to be stated clearly that non-turning is an option and provide alternative procedure description.

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Re: Does anyone know

Post by cdrt on 12/7/2018, 12:28 pm

CR10X wrote:Commands are only part of the requirement according to Annex A:

"The following range procedures and range commands must be used to conduct Service Pistol and 22 Rimfire Pistol events."

But they do provide alternative command "Commence Firing", without explanation. It would be nice for it to be stated clearly that non-turning is an option and provide alternative procedure description.
There is a similar problem in the NRA Precision Pistol Rule Book. It used to state directly, that Registered matches (State, Regionals, Sectionals) required turning targets, while Approved matches did not.

Now you have to hunt for the fact, that if your turning target systems fails, your Registered match now becomes an Approved match, if you want to continue.
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Re: Does anyone know

Post by brassmaster on 12/7/2018, 7:57 pm

cdrt wrote:
CR10X wrote:Commands are only part of the requirement according to Annex A:

"The following range procedures and range commands must be used to conduct Service Pistol and 22 Rimfire Pistol events."

But they do provide alternative command "Commence Firing", without explanation. It would be nice for it to be stated clearly that non-turning is an option and provide alternative procedure description.
There is a similar problem in the NRA Precision Pistol Rule Book. It used to state directly, that Registered matches (State, Regionals, Sectionals) required turning targets, while Approved matches did not.

Now you have to hunt for the fact, that if your turning target systems fails, your Registered match now becomes an Approved match, if you want to continue.

Where in the NRA Rule Book would one find the rule that states: "...Now you have to hunt for the fact, that if your turning target systems fails, your Registered Match now becomes an Approved match, if you want to continue?"
In the example you cited, if during an NRA Registered Match, the turning target system fails or severe weather threatens competitor safety or some other essential equipment failure or other "emergency," doesn't the Match Director have sole authority to stop the match and declare winners based on number of rounds/scores fired in competition before suspension of the competition and it is therefore a legitimate match? Now that it has been ruled/clarified by CMP that turning targets are not required for EIC Matches, the rule cited is not applicable to EIC Matches.
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Re: Does anyone know

Post by cdrt on 12/7/2018, 10:05 pm

It's under 6.8, Types of Target Frames
Rule 6.8 (c) governs what happens, if the turning target system fails during an NRA match.
If a registered tournament cannot be completed using turning targets as required by NRA Pistol Rule 6.9 (a), then it shall, at the match director’s option, either be cancelled or be completed as an approved tournament. If the tournament continues as an approved tournament it shall be governed by the rules applicable to approved tournaments. National Records are not authorized for approved tournaments.


Your "weather" related question is a different situation.  I have attended matches where the weather caused a delay and in one case, we could not finish the team matches, so the scores posted were used to pick the winning team.  In the other cases, one of which just happened at the New Mexico State match in September, we were able to finish the match once the hail and wind stopped.
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Re: Does anyone know

Post by brassmaster Yesterday at 9:32 am

Thanks for your insight comments CDRT---appreciated!
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Re: Does anyone know

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