38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

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38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by PhotoEscape on 12/27/2018, 10:25 am

I recently purchased Hammerli / SIG P240 in 38 SWC.  Thanks to timely forewarning by Bubba Blaster (A BIG THANK YOU!!) I learned not to use ammo based on Remington 148gr HBWC.  In preparation for procuring and loading ammo for above mentioned gun I'm soliciting opinions and information on dimensions of the 148 grain DEWC bullets - diameter (.357" versus .358") and length of the bullet.  And as well recommended sources for bullets.  At this point there are four of known to me sources: Bob's Bullets, Magnus, Meister and Hunters Supply.
AP
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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by Dcforman on 12/27/2018, 12:05 pm

Zero sells a 148 grain double ended wadcutter, but I'm curious, why can't you shoot a hollow base wadcutter in the p240?

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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by james r chapman on 12/27/2018, 12:28 pm

Dcforman wrote:Zero sells a 148 grain double ended wadcutter, but I'm curious, why can't you shoot a hollow base wadcutter in the p240?

Dave
Yeah?
Since it was pretty much designed for semi auto use.
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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by Wobbley on 12/27/2018, 12:39 pm

And why just Remington?   Now the Remingtin ammo of today isn’t as good as the old stuff, but neither is much else.
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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by cdrt on 12/27/2018, 1:35 pm

james r chapman wrote:
Dcforman wrote:Zero sells a 148 grain double ended wadcutter, but I'm curious, why can't you shoot a hollow base wadcutter in the p240?

Dave
Yeah?
Since it was pretty much designed for semi auto use.
Scratching my head on that one, as well.

And why is he calling it a .38 SWC, when semi-wadcutters will not work in it?

We have one guy here with a P240 and all he shoots in it are hollow based wadcutters.
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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by PhotoEscape on 12/27/2018, 2:14 pm

Devil is in details as always - in my case SWC abbreviation is for Special WadCutter as opposed to Semi-WadCutter.  I hope it was obvious since in the same post I mentioned DEWC and HBWC type projectiles.  So I apologize for the confusion I created, and want to stress the detail that Double Ended Special WadCutter is the subject of my inquiry.

Next clarification and details - I shoot 148 grain HBWC ammunition that is based on Remington 148 Special WadCutter projectiles, and will be shooting such for very long time, hopefully.  The ammunition is my own as opposed to manufactured by Remington or anyone else.  I use it in two S&W Model 52 and Colt MK III Special Mid-Range guns.  No issues, and with 2.8 grains under the projectile it is a very accurate round. 

In difference with above mentioned guns, P240 has barrel with smaller ID.  I found article by Aussie shooter Alek Wadi with great information about this gun.   If anyone here can teach me how to attach file, I'll be happy to post this article.  Otherwise I'll be happy to email it on request, - it is about 4MB PDF file.  Pertaining synopsis from the article - P240 barrels lightened in addition to being of smaller ID.  Think of it as a handgun with fluted barrel.  Subsequently, using .361" HBWC projectile in "fluted" sub-.356" barrel requires a lot of attention from shooter.  In particular watching for leading and or skirt separation, or it will bulge.  In above mentioned article I found recommendation to use DEWC sized to to .357".  If I'm not mistaking, Hammerli / SIG even used to supply a mold for casting bullets at one point.

Lastly, I'm looking for information on length of DEWC projectiles, so I can finish design of expanders for Dillon, that will provide for full length of case expansion.  So far, I have one input - .575".  I would love to have confirmation - that is the last detail clarification from OP.
Thank you,
AP
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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by fc60 on 12/27/2018, 2:41 pm

Greetings,

Years ago, Speer published a chart showing the velocity/pressure changes in a pistol using progressively larger bullets.

The result was negligible.

Speer #3 manual, page 215.


Yes, there were some issues with HBWC bullets in the P240 bulging barrels. Haemmerli did specify certain lots of ammo not to use. After which, the new lots of HBWC were acceptable.

SIG-Haemmerli strongly advised against using hand loads and recommended only factory loaded ammo. (Usually HBWC)

I found some test targets fired at 50 yards via the Random Rest with a barrel I made for a fellow shooter. The barrel is 0.355" with 14 twist.

The ammo is part of Grandpa's stash when he shot on the Army Team back in the early 60's.




Cheers,

Dave
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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by james r chapman on 12/27/2018, 3:05 pm

Weren’t the Pythons 14 and .355
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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by Allgoodhits on 12/27/2018, 3:47 pm

I believe the standard SAAMI spec of barrels for .38 spl and .357 mag are.

Bore .355
Land .346

Same for 9mm and .38 Super




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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by james r chapman on 12/27/2018, 4:09 pm

Obviously S&W didn’t read SAAMI Lol
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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by DA/SA on 12/27/2018, 4:31 pm

Not exactly a DEWC, but .585" oal and .537" without the nose projection.



May be a place to start, anyway.

I drew up my own expander/funnel for them, but haven't made it yet...

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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by Bubba Blaster on 12/27/2018, 5:35 pm

http://www.pfrc.com.au/articles/P240.pdf

Here's the PDF that Alex talked about. The HBWC problem must have been serious because Hammerli  stopped making the P240 in 38 SPL and started making them in 32 S&W long instead.

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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by davidbullseye on 12/27/2018, 6:20 pm

Alex, 

Check your email, I just sent you photos of three different .38 DEWC. 

Thanks to the person who posted the PDF, interesting article. 

David

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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by Dcforman on 12/27/2018, 7:31 pm

From the article:

SIG-Hammerli declined all responsibility when 
using other ammunition brands and reloaded 
ammunitions. The reason was that the extremely 
tight Hammerli .38-calibre barrel and thin barrel 
walls were made to attain the maximum target 
precision. Wadcutter commercial projectiles 
with a hollow base or oversized (above .357) 
for reloading were absolutely prescribed.

Was this a typo? Assume they meant "were absolutely forbidden"? Maybe I'm not understanding...

Dave

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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by cdrt on 12/27/2018, 9:43 pm

When I was shooting with the Mare Island Pistol Team in the 1970's, one of the shooters had a P240.  When we ordered ammo for it, we always got ammo cans filled with Remington Target.  He never had a problem with it.  I borrowed his pistol for the U.S. Team tryouts in Phoenix in 1983.  I didn't have any Remington and at that time I did not reload for the .38, so I bought some Federal target at Bob Chow's.  The pistol functioned as it should and I did not have any problems with it.
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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by PhotoEscape on 12/27/2018, 10:01 pm

I believe, based on other references word "prescribed" is a bastardized version of "restricted".  Probably some auto-correct while typing.  I presume, it would be possible to contact Alek Wadi, - he is member of Sporting Shooters' Association of Australia, and frequent contributor to Australian & New Zealand Handgun Magazine.  For that matter I just sent off email to this organization asking for assistance with getting in touch with Mr. Wadi.  I will post update if there will be any progress.

Thank you to everyone who provided with information and feedback. 

Frank, thank you for the lesson on posting files, and taking time to discuss P240 in person.  I really enjoyed conversation, and look forward to future ones.   

David / DavidBullseye, thank you for the refreshment on my reading skills of other than digital micrometers, - I've been spoiled for quite some time.  But most importantly I appreciate the pictures you provided with different bullets, - I was looking for these variables.

David / fc60 - as always your encyclopedial knowledge is a guiding light, and I appreciate you sharing information collected over the years, and looks like for several generation of shooters in your family.

AP
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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by Wobbley on 12/27/2018, 11:07 pm

Bubba Blaster wrote:http://www.pfrc.com.au/articles/P240.pdf

Here's the PDF that Alex talked about. The HBWC problem must have been serious because Hammerli  stopped making the P240 in 38 SPL and started making them in 32 S&W long instead.
I believe the primary reason was the trend to 32 S&W Long in ISSF competition.  With the adoption of the 32 anybody making a decent sized 22 could add mass and new magazine and create a worthy 32.  And there are a big number of advantages to the 32 besides reduced recoil. 

One thing I did note is that the twist is listed as 500mm.  This is 19.6 inches.  Yet the 18.4 twist of the S&W is too slow...
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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by fc60 on 12/28/2018, 12:50 pm

Greetings,

The P240's I have encountered measure as follows...

32 WadCutter---0.3125" groove diameter with a 400mm twist (15.75")

38 Special---0.354" groove diameter with 450mm twist (17.7")

SIG also made a 22lr P240 conversion for low cost training.

Also, I have two P240's in 32 WadCutter with lower serial numbers than the 38 Special P240's I see offered on Gun Broker. This suggests that all three calibers were produced concurrently as demand required.


Last, the thin barrel theory does not hold weight with me. Take a look at the S&W Model 52, Colt 38 National Match, Clark and Giles 38 Super Conversions to 38 Special, and the early 38 AMU and 38 Special Kit barrels. They all measure close to 1/2" outside diameter.

Even fat barrels will bulge with accidental firing.

The P240 is a very nice pistol. I keep hoping someone with publish a "HowTo" regarding setting the trigger from a dis-assembled condition. I was going to ask Larry Carter; but, as usual, I waited too long.

Cheers,

Dave
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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by PhotoEscape Yesterday at 6:14 pm

While being out for vacation, I've heard from author of the article, - to make long story short word "prescribed" in the article should have been "proscribed".  Author's original article draft was incorrectly edited by magazine's staff.  With author's permission to be obtained, I'll post entire email on the subject with explanation.
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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by gregbenner Yesterday at 7:26 pm

fc60 wrote:Greetings,

The P240's I have encountered measure as follows...

32 WadCutter---0.3125" groove diameter with a 400mm twist (15.75")

Dave, I thought most of the Euro 32s had a larger diameter, closer to .3140?  Do you know if the other Hammerli barrels, e.g. the SP20 or 280 were similar?

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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

Post by fc60 Yesterday at 7:57 pm

Greetings Greg,

All SP-20 and 280 barrels I have measures gauge at 0.3135"-0.3140" groove diameter.

Cheers,

David
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Re: 38 SWC with DEWC projectiles.

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