NRA Pistol Comiittee

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NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by NRA Pistol Dept on Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:10 pm

All,

In an effort to grow Conventional Pistol at the Grass Roots Level and bring new competitors to the sport, the NRA Pistol Department has suggested adding a Probationary Program to go into effect in January 2013. This Program is as follow:

One or Two Hand Probationary Conventional Pistol Match to the NRA Pistol Rule Book as a Probationary Match. Each course of fire would be conducted in accordance with current rules in Section 3 – Equipment and Ammunition, Section 7 – Courses of Fire & Section 10 - Range Commands, Control and Operations, with the exception that the furthest distance fired would be 25 yards using the B-5, B-8 or B-16 target. Competitors will be able to use either (1) one or (2) hands in these courses of fire in competition. Classification cards will be issued to any competitor competing in an NRA sanctioned match, for either One or Two Hand NRA Probationary Conventional Pistol Match. No classification cards will be issued above the classification of Expert, these competitors should be encouraged to compete in the standard conventional pistol courses of fire. This classification can not be used in standard conventional pistol competition. No National Records will be issued for this probationary match. The NRA Pistol Committee will review participation at the 2015 NRA Pistol Committee meeting to see if it should be added as a permanent course of fire.

If you run matches, or if you know of some competitors that would be interested in this type of competition, stay tuned in, this program needs to be approved next month by the Competitions Rules Committee and them by the NRA Board of Directors in January. If approved, if will be available on-line through NRA Tournament Resources some time in late January or early February.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Rob Kovach on Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:42 pm

A couple issues that I see with the idea you propose:

If we want to grow the sport in this way, we should not limit probationary shooters to a maximum of 25 yards. We should allow probationary shooters to shoot at any Conventional Pistol match that the organizer wishes to allow 2 handed probationary shooters to enter.

By limiting probationary shooters to 25 yard matches, probationary shooters won't be shooting at any normal match that includes 50 yard slow fire. Since most of us shoot 50 yard slow fire that would segregate probationary shooters from regular shooters. Essentially probationary shooters would only shoot in their own matches. That would be more like creating a new separate 2 handed discipline.

I also recommend that the classification for 2 hand probationary top out at Sharpshooter instead of Expert. If a probationary shooter gets good enough to reach Sharpshooter, they have enough skill to go 1 handed and perform well. Having those higher classifications out there encourages the 2 handed shooters to stay in the probationary path until they achieve those classifications. The goal is to grow bullseye by adding this introductory classification, not to devise a second discipline with 3 classifications to achive.

Thanks again to the NRA Pistol Department for taking interest in our sport again!

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by sixftunda on Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:25 am

A few months ago I had suggested on the email list that a shooters first match could be done two handed.

While I tend to agree more with Rob, I am glad the NRA is taking some positive steps towards bringing new shooters into the sport.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by throttleup on Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:01 pm

Last year we started shooting a second weekly, 50 foot, indoor .22 match. We use the same rules and time limits as one handed conventional Bullseye except the new match is iron sights only and you can use two hands. Over the course of a year we have attracted many more new shooters to the two handed match and a few shooters have stopped shooting one handed entirely. Surprisingly, shooters have found that their average scores are very close in each discipline.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by BE Mike on Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 am

I was a member of an organization a number of years ago. They used to shoot one-handed bullseye. It was a 30 shot NMC except the slow fire was shot at 25 yards on the timed and rapid fire target. The timed and rapid fire was shot at 15 yards on the same target. We used to get 80 or so shooters at a match. Almost none of the shooters "graduated" to an NRA approved "1800" or "2700". Our NRA matches rarely drew more than a dozen shooters or so. I asked some of the short range bullseye shooters why they didn't shoot the NRA matches and the common response was that they were intimidated by the 50 yard distance for slow fire.

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50yds

Post by JLK on Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:24 am

While participating in another hobby I was describing "Bullseye" shooting to a friend.
When I got to the .45 at 50 yd part he exclaimed; "WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU TRY TO SHOOT A .45
AT 50 YDS!" pale
As has already been mentioned. It really intimidates a lot of folks.
Not that I'm any good at it. Wink
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:38 pm

This initimidation factor is where having those probationary shooters and the experienced shooters participating in the same matches is important. During the chit chat before a match, we assure those shooters that if they can hit the black at 50feet, they can hit the black at 50 yards.

They meet the same network of shooters that we did who know about reloading and about gunsmithing, and how to learn from our mistakes instead of guessing about our sport and making the same mistakes that we did. It's OUR OUTREACH that will build the sport! This probationary shooter path will get us to meet these new shooters. We will know who they are because they shoot with both hands. That is our cue to introduce ourselves.

With that being said, if we don't have the probationary shooters participating in the same matches that WE are shooting in, this program wont work, and our sport will continue to shrink.

Remember guys, BONE STOCK Ruger mk3's and Springfield RO's are plenty accurate enough to shoot MASTER scores when in the right hands. There is nothing that a new shooter cannot attain with our advice and guidance.

Why do we shoot at 50yards? Because it is easy enough that we can all do it and hit the target, but hard enough that a perfect score is elusive, and oh so rewarding when you achieve a new "personal best". AND it's really, really FUN!!

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by AllAces on Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:12 pm

I agree with some of what has been said here. Bullseye shooting is not for everyone. Its not even for most shooters. But we do need to grow the sport with younger shooters. When I practice on weekends, very few of the casual shooters use the 25 or 50 yd line. Once my practice is over, I generally offer anyone interested an opportunity to shoot my 1911 at 25 yds. There are very few takers, but a number will want to shoot my wad gun at the 7 meter self defense distance. Those that will shoot at 25 yds are usually impressed with how good they are and sometimes they will show up at bullseye league. On league night when new shooters show up I find that some of the long-time league shooters (these are typically NOT the 2700 shooters) treat the new shooters with indifference at best and outright snobby-ness at worst. Many of these new shooters don't return after a couple weeks.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by sixftunda on Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:25 pm

I may be way off the mark but my very first impression when reading the first post was that it is being made as a separate match because some shooters do not want a newbie next to them at a match. Another thing to remember is some shooters are so focused, that to outsiders, it will appear as grumpiness or snobbishness to a new shooter.

My very first match found me next to an older gentleman who I later learned was a High Master. His disposition was less than stellar. At another match later that year he chewed out a teenager for how he scored targets.

New shooters should get some type of orientation prior to their first match that goes over ettiquette and scoring.

Every shooter when registering should have a box to check on their entry that says "I would be willing to squad next to a new/provisional shooter". This would make new shooters feel welcome and keeps the regular shooters more comfortable.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Jack H on Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:27 pm

Fifty yard intimidation is accompanied by "why"? This is caused by today's shooting industry that has converted (perverted?) the mindset of the masses that shooting is defensive in nature or requires a cowboy costume, or gawd awful speed on house sized targets. Traditional BE shooting is almost unheard of these days. Money talks.

Also for 50 yds equipment comes into play. Your MK Rugers have a good chance, but for 50yd CF and 45, the average glock or similar wont compete with a good Toyota.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Founder on Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:39 pm

I think this will get some of the action pistol shooters to also shoot Bullseye as a way to hone their skills and broaden their skill sets.

I mean we know that our trigger control and muscle memory would allow us to compete at a reasonable level in any of the action pistol sports. Add in the support hand and you may notice that your strong hand grip does not change much if at all.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by BE Mike on Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:10 pm

sixftunda wrote:I may be way off the mark but my very first impression when reading the first post was that it is being made as a separate match because some shooters do not want a newbie next to them at a match. Another thing to remember is some shooters are so focused, that to outsiders, it will appear as grumpiness or snobbishness to a new shooter.

My very first match found me next to an older gentleman who I later learned was a High Master. His disposition was less than stellar. At another match later that year he chewed out a teenager for how he scored targets.

New shooters should get some type of orientation prior to their first match that goes over ettiquette and scoring.

Every shooter when registering should have a box to check on their entry that says "I would be willing to squad next to a new/provisional shooter". This would make new shooters feel welcome and keeps the regular shooters more comfortable.
Many shooters won't even attempt to read the rule book or ask questions. This is disconcerting to a shooter who is at a higher level and is trying to focus on doing his or her best. Poor safety habits will also get a new shooter turned off if he or she is called on them. An introductory course would probably help everyone on the line.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:13 pm

sixftunda--the reason I mention the "separate discipline" point is that the NRA proposal states that the new probationary 2 handed shooters would only be shooting at 25 yards.

One or Two Hand Probationary Conventional Pistol Match to the NRA Pistol Rule Book as a Probationary Match. Each course of fire would be conducted in accordance with current rules in Section 3 – Equipment and Ammunition, Section 7 – Courses of Fire & Section 10 - Range Commands, Control and Operations, with the exception that the furthest distance fired would be 25 yards using the B-5, B-8 or B-16 target.

Since most of us shoot outdoors at 50 yards, there would either have to be separate matches, or probationary shooters would be shooting at different distances, or some other weird situation that would be segregational. That is what wont work well both logistically for tournament hosts, and would limit the comraderie that would be needed to get the new shooters to join us full time.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by sixftunda on Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:40 pm


I understand what you meant Rob and I agree with your ideas.


sixftunda wrote:I may be way off the mark but my very first impression when reading the first post was that it is being made as a separate match because some shooters do not want a newbie next to them at a match.

I was simply theorizing a possible reason why it is being done as a separate match. I have shot in six matches and in two of those the shooters next to me were not thrilled to be shooting next to a rookie.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:50 pm

I think that many match organizers (at least the ones in my area) tend to let the shooters pick their firing points.

For those cranky shooters who would be that master that yells at teenagers for how they are scoring or be upset because a rookie is shooting next to you; pick out a firing point between 2 people you know. Don't correct the behavior of another shooter--point that stuff out to the Range and Line officers. Let the line officers do their job.
The shooters on each side of you are part of the competition. They shouldn't get in your head.

Sixftunda, I hope those rookies you observed weren't scared away.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by sixftunda on Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:54 pm

Nope, that rookie did not get scared off. Smile

In fact looking back I am glad I shot next to that grumpy HM. I learned right from the start to deal with match nerves and not let anyone get in my head but me.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Jack H on Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:59 am

The course sound like a knock-off of the CMP "as issued" (rule 9.13), and the "M9 EIC" (rule 9.8 )

For local clubs I would make it simple with "most any pistol" at 25 or less yards with appropriate scaled targets. Maybe even the blank tombstone Action target. Course: SF 2 hand option, SF one hand, TF 2 hand option, TF one hand. Talking club level, not NRA.


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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by NRA Pistol Dept on Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:02 am

All,

We designed this Probationary Program as a way for the local clubs to run matches for new conventional pistol shooters, and remove some of the unknown factors i.e. the critical fundamentals of marksmanship. We all know there are some other pistol disciplines that only require some of the fundamentals. Hopefully we can show the value of conventional pistol to these shooters.

We will leave logistics to the match organizers, and they can run it as they wish. It certainly would be a plus if we had some experienced conventional pistol shooters to offer guidance to these competitors, and explain that there really is not a problem shooting at 50 yards with one hand.

This program is just another tool we need to use to help grow this sport.

Thanks for the input

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by s1120 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:01 pm

OK... so Im a newbee.. Ive never shot a match, or eaven at a real range. But Im intrested in the sport. One of the main points of Bulleye is the one hand hold. I realy dont see how that is the part thats turning people off. Thats the LEAST of my worrys.

What has to be done to grow the hobby is to get the word out to the masses. All of us on the "outside" have NO IDEA where a match is, how to join, [and if we eaven can!] or what to do when we get there. The better idea would be to offer a entry leavel leage that uses all the same rules, but offers some guidance for the newer members. Maybe a extra guy or two on the line, to give a rundown on what needs to be done, and what to expect. Have a few goals to meet before they move up, and mostly.... get the word out!!! Let the people like me know when these things are, and where. Make it a little more acessable to the newbees out there that might not have a inside track.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Al on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:11 pm

Back when I was a newby (11 yrs ago) I would always try to pick a point to the right (I'm right handed) of a master or high master so I could watch (not talk, except when scoring) and learn. You'll see things they do that they've been doing for so long they don't even think about it and don't realize that everyone (esp newbys) doesn't know about it.

Then during a break, ask.

s1120, from your perspective,
1. where would you be most likely to see a match announcement that would get your interest?
2. what terminology/phrases would do the same?


FWIW

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by s1120 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:41 pm

s1120, from your perspective,
1. where would you be most likely to see a match announcement that would get your interest?
2. what terminology/phrases would do the same?




Well what I would LIKE to see?? A notice in local papers. Flyers in gun shops, and sporting goods stores. OK, so I know this kinda stuff is put on at a local level by the local clubs.. and things cost money, I understand that. Frankly I think the BEST way to get numbers up... What ever local clubs running the events... get NRA invalved before the season starts. Get a weekend or two of "Open House's" Ad in the paper, flyers out... make it a event to show off the program, whats invalved, a little Q and A... NRA gets to jump in and show that they are more then a loby group that you hear about in the news all the time. They get a chance to show the other side. Something like that will get the new guy out and meeting and talking to people. Seeing the program, and having a idea on what its all about.

Realy... the way it is now you eather have to be in the know... or just trip over some info..

Just as a example... OK. SO I know the sport a bit. My Dad compeated a lot in the 60's and 70's... so I had background. So when I got into shooting a few years ago, and started looking. Didnt find anything local at all, and later as I did find a club that was listed as hosting them, I went to the site, and saw nothing about it at all. Now granted... I plan to give the club a call.. but Im still getting my hardwere, and skills in order a bit first... So I know about the sport... and still have to do a ton of digging to find it!!

And as I said before... If I was starting out, I would want to be put under the same rules as I will be working with in the future.. ie the one hand shot being the biggy.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Dave C. on Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:42 am

IMO Bullseye really started to diminish when the NRA print magazines (Hunter and Rifleman) stopped printing match schedules. When was the last time you read an article about Bullseye in one of those magazines? If it's not Action pistol or High power rifle it just does not get covered. They (the NRA) tell us to get the word out but a little help on the national level sure would go a long way. If two handed shooting is introduced you will have much more movement to the two handed form then to the correct one handed form.

Also if it is introduced the classification cards should be separate and distinct from true Conventional Pistol classification cards. Every Conventional shooter that I know worked hard to achieve their Classification following the same rules as every other shooter on the line. Do not diminish the accomplishments of those that have put in the time and work to get to their current level by dumbing down the sport.

Dave C.


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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Jack H on Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:01 pm

Take a hint from the PPP program for air pistol.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by s1120 on Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:12 pm

Very good points Dave. Personally I would like to see this as a lower goal for the new guys.. OK let's say everyone starts out in this lower class with a little more guidence, help and support... let them work to there first level... let's just say "target shooter" just to give it a name..make the goal pretty basic so more then half make it on there first outing... then make all the "target shooters" meet the shooting goals to reach the "real" classes. That will give the new guys two outings to learn the ropes, and shake off the new guy jitters without the pressures of shooting next to.."the grumpy high master" . (Not saying they all are.... you know what I mean..) You know... now there is not as much people growing up in a gun world, with hunting and target shooting with dad...a lot of the new guys don't have the years of shooting that people did 40 or so years ago. That being said a lot of the new guys DO need some hand holding... not only are you teaching bulls eye, but a lot of the guys you are going to be teaching firearm basics also.. and frankly that's not just good for the sport.... but gun ownership as a whole.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by CR10X on Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:15 pm

Dear NRA: In response to the proposal, I would like to endorse the concept of a "beginner match" with the specific conditions and instructions. The NRA rules allow several types of matches (I occasionally run a "no alibi" match just to keep the shooters on their toes) and I don't see this being any different. However, as a match director and RO, I can't see combining this match with a "standard" 2700 because I will not be able to keep track of who is shooting the one hand and who is shooting the 2 hand. In addition, any new shooters will not know the difference when watching and probably will not remember with the first explanation. (I'm still teaching the same people how to score a alibi strings every month.) Again, I think this is a great proposal. We will not find new successes with out trying (and sometimes failing along the way).

As to the other comments about matches and shooting, I have several opinions about the way to get matches started and get shooters attending. I've been running matches for about 13 years, and we have gone from an average of about 5 shooters per match to a generally full line. I greatly appreciate the shooters that attend the matches I run for the club. It takes a great deal of work by a lot of people to get good, consistent participation. It helps if there are other clubs in the area and they coordinate their efforts. But no matter what, we have to remember that Conventional Pistol (Bullseye) is a very hard sport to do well in. It requires consistent and above average application of the basic fundamentals (which some shooter never attain unfortunately). But those that make the journey are probably the most dedicated shooters (and participants) of any of the shooting sports.

Anyway, for those that want to read, the follow is from "So You Wanna Shoot Bullseye" collection of thoughts and comments on my journey through Bullseye.

Matches and Supporting the System

By the way if you have any interest in the sport at all, you really should help out the sport by starting or helping to run some matches. When it comes to promoting shooting, you don’t have to be a great shot to be a great shooter. It’s a lot easier to tell the “doers” from the “talkers” when you’re standing behind the line than it is when you are shooting side by side. An offer to set targets, clean up, call a match, run stats, or even bring lunch is never out of order. Remember, we can’t shoot without matches, but the only person that doesn’t get a chance to shoot is the one running the match. They will burn out before you know it and then you’ll wonder why there aren’t as many matches as there used to be.

If You Build It They Will Come and Ask for Something Else

Getting matches started is hard. You have to have good matches to get shooters started (do not wait to have enough shooters asking for a match, it won’t work that way). Step up, set up and put on some type of approved or registered matches. Why registered or approved? Well, with those everybody knows the rules and procedures and the shooters get classifications. More than enough reasons as far as I am concerned. Get posted on websites and in Shooting Sports USA and have good directions to your range. You will have to endure months and maybe years of limited turnouts until a base of shooters is built up in the area. But if you build it, they will come. (A mailing list of over 100 to 150 shooters will probably result in an average of 15 to 20 shooters for a monthly match based on my experience). They will not come just to see a cornfield and then ask you for a match. Of course, it takes bullseye shooters several years of consistent matches to get into the habit of coming to your cornfield. Do not give up hope.

You want to know my opinion about why Conventional Pistol is pretty active and you can’t find an International Match? Because the International shooting sports do not have the grassroots, marksman, expert, sharpshooter, come out Saturday and shoot support that Bullseye (Conventional) Pistol shooting does. Until we get to that level in International, we will suffer in the Olympic arena in the pistol shooting sports.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

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