NRA Pistol Comiittee

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NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by NRA Pistol Dept on 11/16/2012, 11:10 am

First topic message reminder :

All,

In an effort to grow Conventional Pistol at the Grass Roots Level and bring new competitors to the sport, the NRA Pistol Department has suggested adding a Probationary Program to go into effect in January 2013. This Program is as follow:

One or Two Hand Probationary Conventional Pistol Match to the NRA Pistol Rule Book as a Probationary Match. Each course of fire would be conducted in accordance with current rules in Section 3 – Equipment and Ammunition, Section 7 – Courses of Fire & Section 10 - Range Commands, Control and Operations, with the exception that the furthest distance fired would be 25 yards using the B-5, B-8 or B-16 target. Competitors will be able to use either (1) one or (2) hands in these courses of fire in competition. Classification cards will be issued to any competitor competing in an NRA sanctioned match, for either One or Two Hand NRA Probationary Conventional Pistol Match. No classification cards will be issued above the classification of Expert, these competitors should be encouraged to compete in the standard conventional pistol courses of fire. This classification can not be used in standard conventional pistol competition. No National Records will be issued for this probationary match. The NRA Pistol Committee will review participation at the 2015 NRA Pistol Committee meeting to see if it should be added as a permanent course of fire.

If you run matches, or if you know of some competitors that would be interested in this type of competition, stay tuned in, this program needs to be approved next month by the Competitions Rules Committee and them by the NRA Board of Directors in January. If approved, if will be available on-line through NRA Tournament Resources some time in late January or early February.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Founder on 11/22/2012, 7:52 pm

Well said Cecil and thank you for your efforts and contributions to the Bullseye crowd.

One of the things that might be nice to have is some publication support from the NRA to promote NRA Conventional Pistol. They have a printed brochure that is fairly well written, a little dated but it would work. However they want $1 a copy! If those were supplied we could have some copies at local gun shops and clubs. John Dreyer (with the support of this forum) made a very nice three fold brochure with a modern flare that would also be perfect to have displayed at clubs and shops.

We the match directors spend a lot of our own money and time promoting our sport and trying to fill matches. I see a lot of support and print from the NRA for other disciplines, just look at what goes into the Bianchi cup! I have only seen a short little spot on an outdoor show covering Bullseye and that was a few years ago. There is a lot of focus on 3-gun, self defense, skeet/trap and action pistol.

Perhaps rather than modifying the sport to attract more shooters, how about promoting the challenge of Bullseye to get other shooters from other disciplines to shoot Bullseye? I would love to see a show that takes the top shooters from all shooting disciplines and puts them in head to head competition, kinda like the NRA club challenge. That would draw a good audience, some sponsors and attention to all forms of shooting.

Bullseye has the problem right now that a lot of small business' have. Lack of advertising budget to bring in the customers. You have a great store, location, product and service just cant get people in the door. I'm not sure changing the rules will bring in the customers, but see the comments above from newer shooters that cannot find matches. Perhaps the NRA could host a website showing locations of matches or clubs that host leagues programs.

I do what I can with this forum and the help of the members here. What else can the NRA do to support us? It is a good start just being here on the forum, hopefully some of the good ideas and feedback presented here will flip a light switch and you will have an ahh haa! moment?

Sorry for the rambling, must be the turkey I ate?
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Rob Kovach on 11/22/2012, 9:02 pm

Maybe the NRA shooting sports website could be redone so we can actually find information about Bullseye rules and Matches.

The minute an NRA sanctioned match is scheduled, it should get posted on a Bullseye NRA event Calendar.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by s1120 on 11/23/2012, 5:15 am

Joe Fobes wrote:
Sorry for the rambling, must be the turkey I ate?



Not rambling at all. Some verygood points!!



Just as a aside... its also confusing to the new guy that Bullseye pistol.. well is realy called NRA Conventional Pistol... So when the newguy that knows about bullseye cant find anything about it... becouse its all refered to as NRA Conventional Pistol in all the rulebooks. Not sure what can be changed there.... just figured I would throw that out there.



Mostly I want to thank NRA for caring to help, and coming on here and ask. Also you guys that setup, run, and have compeated, and supported these matches for years. Without that none of us would be talking about this now!

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Ira Latimer on 11/23/2012, 11:53 am

I've always believed that the name "Conventional Pistol" should be changed to "Precision Pistol," for that's what it really is. Maybe a new discipline should be established, such as "Tyro Pistol" or some name. Our job, then, would be trying to convert these shooters to the precision sport. I have to admit, though, after more than 50 years of shooting, and 20 years of match directing, that I've seen few shooters converted from silhouette, action, or cowboy pistol shooting, though a few have added "Precision Pistol" to their shooting activities.

Just the thoughts of a worn out old shooter.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by sixftunda on 11/23/2012, 1:38 pm

I think Precision Pistol is an excellent name.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by NRA Pistol Dept on 11/26/2012, 8:22 am

All,

We appreciate the input, and we agree with all of you, the proposed Program is just another tool to get more people to get their guns out of the closet and get out shooting.

For detailed information, this Probationary Program is just that, if it does not help the sport grow at the grass roots level by 2015, the Pistol Committee will remove it. Their will be separate classification cards for the above mentioned reasons.

We have added this same type of Program to NRA Action Pistol as well, because believe it or not, we have the same difficulties with new shooters there, but that is getting better, because we added a Production Division.

All matches submitted to the NRA within 90 days of the 1st shot are listed in the NRA Shooting Sports On-Line Magazine. This magazine used to be published in print, but just like other national magazines that no longer exist, it is very difficult to produce printed copies on some topics without a way to pay for them. The American Rifleman just did a fantastic article on Camp Perry, to include Bulls-Eye, also ShootingUSA TV will be airing a show on Pistol Phase at Camp Perry from this year.

We are doing what we can from NRA HQ, we can';t be at every match, and we can't run them from here, we are hoping that the additions and enhancements will make it easier for all of you to attract new shooters, or bring some older ones back.

Thanks for all that you do for the Shooting Sports, we certainly appreciate the efforts from here. We run the National Championships, so we know what it takes to run a match, it's often not easy, but the payoff makes it worth it.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by BE Mike on 11/26/2012, 8:51 am

Back in the 50's and 60's the military had bullseye teams on many different posts. Since the military folks got paid to shoot and got free equipment and ammo, it was very popular. I think it was an overall benefit to the military as it improved weapons handling and marksmanship.

I got interested in bullseye shooting as a civilian by a guy who wanted to start a club. He got me lined out on a .22 and explained the match. He accompanied me to my first match. I think nowadays that's still the way most people get started. The problem is you might ask a lot of people before you get any takers and out of the takers, most won't be repeat customers.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by bullseyepistol on 4/26/2013, 9:44 pm

FAIL. The Competitions division has this all wrong. There are plenty of disciplines for two-handed or combat shooting. The conventional sport should stay clear of the temptation to dilute the sport any farther from its international-type precision roots.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by DavidR on 4/27/2013, 9:06 am

So has this new probationary program been approved and if so where can we get the full details on how to implement it at our range?
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by BE Mike on 4/27/2013, 9:42 am

bullseyepistol wrote:FAIL. The Competitions division has this all wrong. There are plenty of disciplines for two-handed or combat shooting. The conventional sport should stay clear of the temptation to dilute the sport any farther from its international-type precision roots.
I tend to agree. One club I belonged to shot a "club" match with slow fire at 25 yds. and sustained fire at 15 yds. The 25 yard B-8 target was used at both distances. We never got anyone to "graduate" up to the NRA 2700 or 1800 matches. The NRA doesn't need to approve two-handed bullseye pistol matches or other easier matches. Clubs can do that on their own. Precision pistol is a term already is wide use by international style pistol shooters. No need to muddy up the waters.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/27/2013, 10:15 am

This 2-hands probationary class idea would not be the first time a sanctioning body threw a grenade about a half-cocked hair-brained idea, and they left it to hang over the sport without taking any further action.

The least the could do is give us a status update. I won't hold my breath.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Wingshot on 4/27/2013, 10:17 am

bullseyepistol wrote:FAIL. The Competitions division has this all wrong. There are plenty of disciplines for two-handed or combat shooting. The conventional sport should stay clear of the temptation to dilute the sport any farther from its international-type precision roots.

As a Noob, I agree as well. You can never learn to ride a bike unless you take the training wheels off. We allow 2 hand shooting at our club shoots for those that need to but for the most part, all of us are interested and focused on learning the Fundementals of bullseye in order to get the rockers and badges. Shooting paper isn't glamorous or exciting for spectators like the steel shoots or the run and gun comps. It is what it is, a precision pistol shooting discipline.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/27/2013, 10:50 am

I double checked. NRA Pistol Dept hasn't posted since November on our forum. I just emailed them a nasty gram and a request of the status of their proposal.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by NRA Pistol Dept on 4/29/2013, 7:13 am

Rob Kovach wrote:I double checked. NRA Pistol Dept hasn't posted since November on our forum. I just emailed them a nasty gram and a request of the status of their proposal.

All,

Good morning,

Just because we do not post on here, does not mean we don't read the information that the membership posts. The Probationary Program is approved, it is designed NOT to take away from the history or procedure of traditional conventional pistol matches, it is another tool that match directors and clubs can use to attract new shooters to the conventional pistol sport. If we sit back and wait and hope for the best, it may be too late to save this sport, we took a step to save it! If the probationary program does not work and their is little or no interest, it will automatically go away in 2016.

The New Probationary Program is on the NRA Website: http://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/rules/rul_conv_pistol_13.pdf

Like it or not, it was added for the good of the sport and for no other reason.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/29/2013, 7:39 am

WOW, NRA Thanks for going out of your way and spending 30 seconds to keep us abreast about what you are doing to OUR sport. Just because YOU sanction it doesn't mean it's YOUR sport. With this being just one more example of the "support" NRA gives to the sport of Bullseye, who needs enemies.

Since you just went ahead and implemented NONE of our suggestions and kept all the mistakes in your proposal shows me that the NRA Pistol Department thinks it knows best, and doesn't care about logic, reason, or any of the opinions that were shared about the proposal on this forum.

Get a clue.

--The reduction of maximum range to 25 yards will reduce the number of outdoor matches for probationary shooters to ALMOST ZERO. I'll remind the NRA that BULLSEYE shoots slowfire at 50 yards for ALMOST ALL REGISTERED MATCHES.
--By letting people play the 2 handed "probationary" game up to the rank of EXPERT you have created 2 sports--2 handed bullseye and 1 handed bullseye. There are not that many bullseye shooters who ever get good enough to shoot better than EXPERT. Hell, I barely made sharpshooter. I might as well get my EXPERT badge in 2 handed bullseye now.

Way to go NRA. Thanks for nothing.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/29/2013, 7:46 am

Even worse. Since NRA thinks this "probationary" classification system is the way to "save" this sport, this new contingency of shooters who are trying to work their way to their EXPERT card will be pressuring match organizers to set the matches up with 25 yard slow fire.

Great. 50 yard slow fire is my favorite part of this sport. What was NRA thinking!!!

If this new rule was for the good of the sport, then after they asked us for our input, they would have taken some of our suggestions. This isn't for the good of the sport. This is bullcrap.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by DavidR on 4/29/2013, 9:26 am

I would agree that a level of sharpshooter should be the maximum for two handed, since everyone enters in as a marksman, this would give them a since of acomplesment and since this program is designed to get them into bullseye then they can decide if they want to step up to one hand or just stay in two hand as a sharpshooter.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by NRA Pistol Dept on 4/29/2013, 10:21 am

Rob Kovach wrote:
If this new rule was for the good of the sport, then after they asked us for our input, they would have taken some of our suggestions. This isn't for the good of the sport. This is bullcrap.

No where in our original post did we ask for input, as a courtesy we posted the program for the Bullseye membership reference, as I stated in an email to you, this Probationary Program is a suggestion from competitors by email to the NRA Pistol Committee, once the Committee approves the suggestion it goes to route described in the original post.

If you don't like it, that is fine, it is not designed for competitors that already compete in the standard conventional pistol program. It does not effect you at all, but it MAY get some new competitors involved. Have you thought that there just might be ranges out there that do not have a 50 yard range? Have you thought that there might be some people out there that might want to try Bulls-Eye competition but do not have a .22 or .45? Have you thought that there might be some people out there that just might want to show a new shooter how to shoot Bulls-Eye, and give them a chance to get a classification card for trying it? There are plenty of people out there that started shooting bulls-eye with two hands. This program is another option to get "NEW" shooters, isn't that what we all want? If it works...fantastic, if it does not work, who does it hurt? No-one! If we sit back and do nothing, we all know what will happen. Change can be difficult to adjust to, but positive change for the growth of YOUR sport can not be a bad thing.

While we review this forum frequently and appreciate the efforts of the membership, so we are clear, this Forum is not the proper outlet to the NRA Pistol Dept or the NRA Pistol Committee, you can contact a member of the Committee, I am sure they are on here as well, or send a letter or email to the NRA Pistol Dept. All rule changes or clarifications since 2007 have been instituted that way. We will consider all suggestions for the good of the sport and it's growth.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Jack H on 4/29/2013, 12:35 pm

As I wrote before the industry has changed most shooting from traditional to defensive, action, and costumed. If BE is to continue and even grow, it is YOU that has to do that. YOU have to put in the time to show noobs about pistol shooting. It is not up to the NRA or USAS. YOU.

Anything that gets shooters to the line is valuable. The NRA proposal need not be run along with or during a conventional match. Growing the sport is totally up to people like you and you, and you. You must introduce pistol shooting to the public in any form that works. Be it the USAS PPP system, or the NRA Probational system. Or anything you dream up that is safe. And works.

You must think outside the BE box if you want more shooters to the line, part of which might continue to try BE. Others might continue to Action pistol. And some will be content with paper plates at 10 feet.

I believe that is a Giles HS in the foreground.
http://issuu.com/compshoot/docs/pistol_brochure_issuu_may_2011/2?mode=a_p

One thing the NRA Could do is be current and more numerous and relevant with their "news" items.
http://competitions.nra.org/competitor%27s-corner-newsletter.aspx

http://competitions.nra.org/news-events.aspx


Last edited by Jack H on 4/29/2013, 1:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Please Listen

Post by mahoak on 4/29/2013, 12:44 pm

"No where in our original post did we ask for input, as a courtesy we posted the program for the Bullseye membership"

That quote from the NRA says a lot about the NRA.

I'm new to shooting in a sense since I had not shot anything since my exit from the army in 1970 until 2010. I still owned guns but didn't use them while career and family were priorities. In 2010 I thought it would be fun to get into competitive rifle, but was unable to work into the positions necessary. Then someone at the range near my home asked if I would like to try shooting a pistol. That was two years ago, and I now have an outdoor classification of expert. It would appear that your new program would have been designed for just my situation, but I think it is a mistake as implemented, and would not have been as helpfull as what I got from going to regular leagues and matches. The idea is good but only if made a part of the present matches. It is too hard to get workers to staff the present system, and it would seem that this new program would be separate matches.

Listen to those of us that staff current matches. We only have so much time to give. Add the new classifications to what is presently being run, and let the experienced shooters offer help to whomever shoots next to them on the line whether it be one handed, two handed, sitting or standing. We do it all the time in our leagues, but then they are not run or sanctioned by the NRA.

Attention NRA, listen to the voices here.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by DavidR on 4/29/2013, 12:49 pm

I read the new rules where it is listed but My question is, are these matches to be run as a separate match on its own or are they to be incorporated into a regular 2700? If so how is the different distances shot as you could not have people shooting 50 yards and the 25 targets faced so others could shoot at that distance at the same time.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by bullseyepistol on 4/29/2013, 5:27 pm

Fellows, I believe that we are over-thinking this NRA move. As I look down at my Master Classification card for Conventional Pistol, I remember the "labor of love" it took to earn it. I don't want to see the discipline watered-down.

I have a theory why Conventional Pistol is waning, and it is not because it has gotten any harder than it has ever been. When it comes to fellow shooters, we talk less about records broken and more about obituaries. Outdoor matches require large complicated ranges with seasoned volunteers to run them - the regimes at gun clubs are now more concerned with liabilities and legalites, and that's where the money goes. General economic inflation is making the cost of ammunition, reloading components, gasoline and lodging a little out of reach for many. Oh, and I almost forgot to mention the high price of firearms, cases, spotting scopes and other equipment - just to get started in the sport!

So what's the solution? Two hands? Hum, I don't think so.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Founder on 4/29/2013, 10:14 pm

I will toss my .02 worth at this, just because I feel compelled to. I like John do not want a watered down version of Bullseye. I do not see many of the other NRA shooting sports getting watered down?

However, our sport is suffering and lacking the intake of new shooters. While the action pistol divisions are seeing growth. If offering 2-handed shooting will drive people to our matches I am all for it. But the flip side of that is, how can we run a conventional pistol match and a "probationary" conventional pistol match at the same time, logistically I do not see that working out. Which means these matches will have to be run separately, so now I need to two things, find enough new shooters to fill a line and get my club to ok the range time for a match.

If they would have left out the 25 yard only part at least we could have had the shooters mixed in with the experienced shooters. Not many experience shooters are going to want to participate in a educed target (short range) 25yard only match. Maybe I am wrong?

I am looking at offering an introduction to NRA Conventional Pistol Competition at my local club to raise some interest in the sport. Cover the basics, rules, course of fire, etiquette, equipment, fundamentals, shot process and stress safety and developing trigger control which could be applied to all shooting sports.

Not sure what to make of this, if anyone runs one of these matches please provide some feedback on its success, failure or otherwise.

Thank you.

On an aside I invited the NRA Pistol Committee to our forum to begin some two way dialogue on what we can do as a group to increase participation in NRA Conventional Pistol Competition. This is the single largest group of active Bullseye shooters on the web and along with that there are countless years of wisdom, experience and opinions that you simply wont find anyplace else. I was truly hoping for a partnership based off mutual respect and desire for the growth and future of our sport to blossom from this. I am not sure where the NRA got this idea but it would have been nice for our group to have some input on it prior to action.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Wingshot on 4/29/2013, 10:32 pm

Joe Fobes wrote:I will toss my .02 worth at this, just because I feel compelled to. I like John do not want a watered down version of Bullseye. I do not see many of the other NRA shooting sports getting watered down?

However, our sport is suffering and lacking the intake of new shooters. While the action pistol divisions are seeing growth. If offering 2-handed shooting will drive people to our matches I am all for it. But the flip side of that is, how can we run a conventional pistol match and a "probationary" conventional pistol match at the same time, logistically I do not see that working out. Which means these matches will have to be run separately, so now I need to two things, find enough new shooters to fill a line and get my club to ok the range time for a match.

If they would have left out the 25 yard only part at least we could have had the shooters mixed in with the experienced shooters. Not many experience shooters are going to want to participate in a educed target (short range) 25yard only match. Maybe I am wrong?

I am looking at offering an introduction to NRA Conventional Pistol Competition at my local club to raise some interest in the sport. Cover the basics, rules, course of fire, etiquette, equipment, fundamentals, shot process and stress safety and developing trigger control which could be applied to all shooting sports.

Not sure what to make of this, if anyone runs one of these matches please provide some feedback on its success, failure or otherwise.

Thank you.

On an aside I invited the NRA Pistol Committee to our forum to begin some two way dialogue on what we can do as a group to increase participation in NRA Conventional Pistol Competition. This is the single largest group of active Bullseye shooters on the web and along with that there are countless years of wisdom, experience and opinions that you simply wont find anyplace else. I was truly hoping for a partnership based off mutual respect and desire for the growth and future of our sport to blossom from this. I am not sure where the NRA got this idea but it would have been nice for our group to have some input on it prior to action.

I like your attitude Joe.
As someone who is new to the sport AND being in a position to create and foster a Conventional Pistol program into our clubs activities I can tell you that all of this is a bit overwhelming at the moment. I am still attempting to learn the game, the rules, (prior to the above changes) and the rankings system. I know that if its presented properly to our shooters, new interested parties will step forward especially if these folks don't feel pressured into buying additional firearms just to get started. What I would ask, collectively, is for the NRA to publicize and support the sport as much as possible and offer assistance as needed. Personally, I would invite the NRA pistol committee to PM me to discuss helping us to kick off a program here in SW PA. We are an affiliate club and I have the directors support and have resources at our disposal to facilitate an educational program that they could possibly showcase to other clubs to bolster participation and perhaps build some sustainability into what seems to be a sundowning sport. Please, feel free to contact me.

Jeff
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by SMBeyer on 4/29/2013, 10:48 pm

It seems to me that this probationary program from what I read in the link from the NRA is fairly vague. My question would be how long does this probation last? Do you get to be called a probationary shooter until you can shoot better than 855 two handed? That could take years for some people and wouldn't seem quite fair to the guys that have labored for years as a marksmen or sharpshooter one handed.

I could see this probationary classification work if there was either a time limit like one year or six months or a shot limit of a certain amount and then you automatically went to the standard one handed form. I think 270 shots for a probationary shooter is also too much and that much shooting might turn some off. I think a NMC after a 2700 for the probationary shooters might work. The probationary shooters could be paired with an experienced shooter as a "coach". I know I would stick around and help a new shooter. Like the guy from the NRA said who is it gonna hurt unless you are shooting alongside the regular shooters and allowed to labor along 2 handed for years and years. Personally I would like to help but not while I'M shooting. While I'm shooting the only one I am concerned about is me and I don't want to be worrying about any body else. I don't even like shooting next to my own Dad who is trying to get back into the sport because I am thinking about him not me. But after I would be happy to help out.

As far as the purity of the sport what sport are we going to have if we don't get some new shooters? I'm 41 and typically one of the youngest shooters at a match. I think even with this probationary two handed position you are going to see very few people that try it stick with it. Lets face it this is a difficult sport and most people don't want to be reminded of their inabilities. I think you will be lucky to get one out of ten probationary shooters to stick with the sport. But that might be even less if they have to shoot one handed their first time. Most people want to do what they are comfortable with and for most people who are shooting a pistol it is two hands. Most are even afraid to shoot a real match much less shoot it a way that they have probably never done before.

Personally I don't see this taking off so I think there is a reaction here to something most will probably never see. I don't know what the awnser is to keep our sport going but I don't see letting a few beginers shoot with two hands for a little while as detrimental.

Scott
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SMBeyer

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

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