NRA Pistol Comiittee

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NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by NRA Pistol Dept on 11/16/2012, 11:10 am

First topic message reminder :

All,

In an effort to grow Conventional Pistol at the Grass Roots Level and bring new competitors to the sport, the NRA Pistol Department has suggested adding a Probationary Program to go into effect in January 2013. This Program is as follow:

One or Two Hand Probationary Conventional Pistol Match to the NRA Pistol Rule Book as a Probationary Match. Each course of fire would be conducted in accordance with current rules in Section 3 – Equipment and Ammunition, Section 7 – Courses of Fire & Section 10 - Range Commands, Control and Operations, with the exception that the furthest distance fired would be 25 yards using the B-5, B-8 or B-16 target. Competitors will be able to use either (1) one or (2) hands in these courses of fire in competition. Classification cards will be issued to any competitor competing in an NRA sanctioned match, for either One or Two Hand NRA Probationary Conventional Pistol Match. No classification cards will be issued above the classification of Expert, these competitors should be encouraged to compete in the standard conventional pistol courses of fire. This classification can not be used in standard conventional pistol competition. No National Records will be issued for this probationary match. The NRA Pistol Committee will review participation at the 2015 NRA Pistol Committee meeting to see if it should be added as a permanent course of fire.

If you run matches, or if you know of some competitors that would be interested in this type of competition, stay tuned in, this program needs to be approved next month by the Competitions Rules Committee and them by the NRA Board of Directors in January. If approved, if will be available on-line through NRA Tournament Resources some time in late January or early February.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/29/2013, 11:17 pm

NRA Pistol Dept said, "Just because we do not post on here, does not mean we don't read the information that the membership posts.
No where in our original post did we ask for input, as a courtesy we posted the program for the Bullseye membership reference
My fellow competitors,
If you think these comments are pompous, you should see the emails he sent me. He said that the committee never saw any of our suggestions because the weren't in an email or submitted in a written format. Seriously?! He posted that stuff as a courtesy?! How about the courtesy of letting us know what the procedure for submitting suggestions before the committee acts on it?

It's rather apparent that the pistol committee doesn't really know enough about conducting a bullseye match or the classification structure to have implemented this rule change. His counterpoints and the justifications he provided are absolutely bizarre.

Look, you need to know how something works before you can fix it. After I dig through the emails further I will post more. I can't believe how thoughtless this process has been. No
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Jack H on 4/29/2013, 11:20 pm

Not much will happen without consideration of the folks that only have a cheapo house gun or those that have the latest tacticool piece. Neither will be worth much at 50yds compared to the specialized BE guns. Sure some 22s will fit the bill. The only way to get them to the firing line is to design something to fit them.

I have Sig 228 and 220 both from the mid 90s. Excellent firearms for what they are. With the best offhand I can muster, they are all in the black at 25. At 50 they do not have adjustable sights and with normal ammo, they are not in the black. How would you cater a match for noob me?
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by NRA Pistol Dept on 4/30/2013, 7:52 am

All,

Good morning,

Most of you have been a member of this Forum a lot longer than I have, if you are unaware of the process to get a rule change in any NRA Rule Book, this is, and has been the procedure, at least from 2007, anyway. Suggestion is sent by email or letter to the NRA Pistol Department, the NRA Committee Secretary adds that item to the Agenda to be discussed at the Committee Meeting (usually in Oct each year), the Committee discusses the suggestion and either passes it or not, if it passes the Committee, it is sent to the Competitions Rules Committee (usually in December each year), if it passes this Committee, it is sent to the NRA Board Meeting (in January each year) for final approval. If it is approved, it is then added as a rule change to the NRA Rule Book. We do NOT publish suggestions for change that are submitted to us by a competitor or anyone else for anyone to offer suggestions or advice about what was submitted to us, it would not be right to do that. Once the Pistol Committee approves the suggestion and it is sent to the Competitions Rules Committee it can not be changed.

My office posted the outcome of the Pistol Committee held in October, in November for your information.

Now to be clear, this Probationary Program is NOT from the NRA, the NRA Pistol Dept or the NRA Pistol Committee, it was suggested by Conventional Pistol Competitors to the NRA Pistol Committee to implement a program to bring new Competitors to the Conventional Pistol Sport for them to try it, and get a classification card for doing so. This same type Program was also added to the NRA Action Pistol Rule Book, there are clubs across the country running this type of program in NRA Action Pistol; have they found some areas that need to be fixed? Yes, and the NRA Action Pistol Committee will address & fix those issues at the next NRA Action Pistol Committee meeting in October 2013. We have not received any requests to hold a Conventional Probationary Program Match, these are matches not conducted by us, we can not & do not run local matches. We simply do our best to offer YOU the competitors & match organizers an opportunity to draw more shooters. If matches are run, and you come across some logistical or administrative issues, let us know, the NRA Pistol Committee will address & fix those issues.

Making personal attacks on me, my office or the NRA & the NRA Pistol Committee will not change or fix anything. Any decisions for change in the Pistol Department, (Pistol & Action Pistol) comes from competitors & match organizers suggestions, not from me, my office or the NRA Pistol Committee. WE are here for you and every other Pistol owner in the world, we do this for all of you, we are certainly not adding or changing anything for the (3) three of us in the NRA Pistol Department, we have enough to do.

We always want constructive suggestions for change that MAY help grow the pistol shooting sports. As always, feel free to contact us anytime.

Tom...

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by DavidR on 4/30/2013, 9:12 am

Ok i get all the reasons you made your decision, but i have asked these question now for the third time, How do our range officers conduct these matches, As a separate on its on match? Or included in a scheduled 2700? And if in a 2700, tell us how shooters will shoot a 25 yd target while others are shooting 50 yds. If you cant give us guidance in the implementation of this then I can tell you all this is simply lip service and this program will go nowhere.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Founder on 4/30/2013, 11:44 am

This was emailed to me from a person devoted the the promotion of the sport, a match director and competitive shooter. I am posting this on his behalf, even though he was just blowing off steam. It pretty much sums up a lot of others thoughts.

Hi Joe,

Just venting because I've got nobody else to vent to right now... post on your list if you want...

Is the NRA nuts??? What the heck is this two handed 25 yard baloney? Here we put in all the time to recruit new shooters to our local Pistol Marksmanship Schools, market and promote our matches and leagues to the ends of the earth, run our matches and leagues. All the while we're coaching, "coaxing", hand holding, encouraging, shooters not only to "try it" but also to "stick with it".We were all new shooters once, "Tyros" at our first match. There is a process here and at the end you might have add a new member to our cadre of dedicated Bullseye shooters. They're proud, we're proud. And then the NRA goes and TORPEDOES the whole program. I am so mad about this I can't even tell you.

Who the hell came up with this baloney. What next: Pave, Enclose, and Air Condition Camp Perry because the exposed points are to damned wet and hot? Whoever the SOB that came up with this is welcome to come to my matches and he or she can run up and down the line to police this two handed 25 yard BS because I certainly will not have time for it in addition to everything else incumbent to running a match. I am just floored that the NRA, our own Sanctioning Authority, would so completely and efficiently screw me and every other Match Director, League Chairman, and Bullseye Pistol promoter that walks the earth. You took away your and our credibility, NRA: Thanks. Water down the program just like the Public Schools: Dumb it down so nobody fails.

JMM
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by NRA Pistol Dept on 4/30/2013, 2:02 pm

DavidR wrote:Ok i get all the reasons you made your decision, but i have asked these question now for the third time, How do our range officers conduct these matches, As a separate on its on match? Or included in a scheduled 2700? And if in a 2700, tell us how shooters will shoot a 25 yd target while others are shooting 50 yds. If you cant give us guidance in the implementation of this then I can tell you all this is simply lip service and this program will go nowhere.

David,

It's your match, make it easy for you, your competitors & your staff, separate the scores so they can be identified by our Tournament Reporting office. I do not know the lay out of your range, so I can't give you viable advice on running the Probationary Program at the same time as a Conventional Match. But make it easier for all of you if possible, if it does not work, or if you have suggestions to make it better, let us know. No-one has run this Program yet. I don't do lip service, does not help you, other competitors, me or the NRA.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Wingshot on 4/30/2013, 2:12 pm

Having started to read these new rules I am concluding that the changes are undermining everything that I was trying to set up with our new start up. I say this because now, anyone who reviews the new rules can challenge us for sticking to the pre-2013 rules and requirements. It's true that manning these events is a chore in and of itself and if we add in all the probationary stuff, it will be downright impossible. I for one am going to stick with the conventional rules in place prior to these changes and if we don't get the desired participation, so be it. I was at first prepared to embrace the changes but after some reflection, I'm with most of you posting here. To me this is like saying that from now on, fly fisherman may now use bait and snagging hooks in the artificial, fly fishing only waters and oh, by the way, you can keep and kill all the wild trout you catch.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Jack H on 4/30/2013, 2:33 pm

You just don't get it. This "probationary" (not the best name) and any other new proposal to grow the sport is not a challenge to your game. Stop thinking of yourself, and go help others learn markspersonship Smile

You and the noobs can shoot a BE match together later. Even if they do choose to use two hands for reasons of inexperience, confidence, or senioritis.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by DavidR on 4/30/2013, 2:35 pm

Thanks for the answers. I will pass it on to our range personnel for consideration.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/30/2013, 10:27 pm

The part that Tom points out that doesn't make any sense is the part where once a recommendation or proposal is on the agenda and it's discussed in Committee, and apparently there isn't ANY procedure to amend the proposal?

If the Pistol Department isn't able to amend problems in a proposal, and can only approve or reject a proposal, they should have voted no on this proposal.

With the current probationary rule, the 2 handed probationary classification has no mechanism to get the new 2 handed shooter to integrate into NRA Conventional Pistol. If 2 handed probationary matches gain momentum, the alternate path will create a rift between the 2 groups and do more harm to NRA Conventional Pistol than good.

Tom should have done a better job telling us about the process in November so we could have submitted the appropriate opposition to the proposal.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Rob Kovach on 10/30/2013, 11:30 pm

Update:
 
This year I followed the rule change procedure and submitted my suggestions to the "probationary" pistol rules.  The current rules are:
 
 
• 24. PROBATIONARY CONVENTIONAL PISTOL MATCH

Each course of fire would be conducted in accordance with current rules in Section 3, Equipment and Ammunition; Section 7, Courses of Fire and Section 10, Commands, Control and Operations with the exception that the furthest distance fired would be 25 yards using the B-5, B-8 or B-16 target. Competitors will be able to use either (1) one or (2) hands in these courses of fire in competition. Classification cards will be issued to any competitor competing in an NRA sanctioned match, for either One or Two Hand Probationary Conventional Pistol Match. No classification cards will be issued above the classification of Expert, these competitors should be encouraged to compete in the standard conventional pistol courses of fire. No National Records will be issued for this probationary match.

 
 
The motion that the committee will bring to the next step in the process will to amend it to:
 
 
24. PROBATIONARY CONVENTIONAL PISTOL MATCH

Each course of fire would be conducted in accordance with current rules in Section 3, Equipment and Ammunition; Section 7, Courses of Fire and Section 10, Commands, Control and Operations. with the exception that the furthest distance fired would be 25 yards using the B-5, B-8 or B-16 target. Competitors will be able to use either (1) one or (2) hands in these courses of fire in competition. Classification cards will be issued to any competitor competing in an NRA sanctioned match, for either One or Two Hand Probationary Conventional Pistol Match. No classification cards will be issued above the classification of Expert Sharpshooter, these competitors should be encouraged to compete in the standard conventional pistol courses of fire. No National Records will be issued for this probationary match.


I had asked that slow fire distances of less 25 yards be allowed at match director discretion but that wasn't included in the committee motion. I wonder if 25 yard slow fire on reduced targets is already allowed at the discretion of a match director...

I am quite pleased with this motion and would like to report to the forum that all I had to do was email my suggested change to Tom Hughes at: thughes@nrahq.org

If you have something in the rulebook that you would like to see changed, don't hesitate to forward it to Tom.

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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Rob Kovach on 10/30/2013, 11:46 pm

I believe with these rule changes, it will allow a match director to advertise a probationary match that is held at the same time as a regular bullseye match. A match director can squad the probationary shooters on the ends of the firing line or near where a range official will be stationed, and help work their way through the matches.

I think it's important for this probationary classification to have its desired effect that those probationary shooters have us to talk to during a match to give advice and guidance to. They can't get that at a separate match that only probationary shooters are welcome at. This change will make it possible to hold probationary matches at the same time as a normal bullseye match.

Thanks Pistol Committee!
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by DavidR on 10/31/2013, 9:48 am

Any match can be shot on the reduced target if the range officer decides, we had our last three at our range this way because our 50 yard line was destroyed by a storm. So we advertised these as probationary matches and got some new faces, but this program will never fly unless they allow it to be done in a regular 50 yard match as most ranges wont schedule reduced matches but maybe at best twice a season. Letting the probies  shoot in any match will keep them coming and interested and like in our case once they get started and see others doing it one handed they decide to switch. Almost all the ones we had switched to one handed after the first match they shot.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Rob Kovach on 10/31/2013, 5:53 pm

This rule change will allow the probies to shoot at 50 yards.
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Re: NRA Pistol Comiittee

Post by Froneck on 4/3/2015, 1:20 pm

So As not to keep non probationary shooters away from a probationary match I think there should be a short orientation before the match for those new shooters. I know of many shooter that have grumbled about a new shooters including me!  I want to see new shooter in the sport and will help anyone learn the sport but I and other match shooters have shot next to or near a new shooter that would not take instruction. Most new shooters are eager to learn and willing to take instruction however there are a few that simply think they know everything!  What's worst is a group of new shooters that usually shoot slow fire in 1 minute and take the other 9 minutes talking and laughing about what they just shot disturbing the shooters around them. I also think the range officers should be instructed to keep an eye out for both poor behavior and safety. If not thee will be a gain of new shooters and a loss of the regulars. Shooting a match is enjoyable regardless of the score but no one whats to shoot a match that has been spoiled by the behavior of a few.

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