Case Gauges

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Case Gauges

Post by Tom Jadlos on Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:25 pm

Good Evening,

I'm relatively new to the Bullseye-L forum and have a reloading question. I had Dave Salyer turn a Springflield Mil-Spec into a wadgun. I also purchased a Dillon 550b reloader. A friend helped me set-up the machine so with any kind of luck I'll be able to shoot the .45 this weekend.

My question: Are all case gauges the same, i.e., the same dimensionf or are some tighter than others. The 4-caliber gauge (9mm, .38, .40, and .45) made by EGW is attractive due my planning to load 9mm in the near future. Is the EGW as good as any, or are there others that are better suited for the match chamber in my Kart barrel? Thanks,

Tom

Tom Jadlos

Posts : 29
Join date : 2012-01-31

Back to top Go down

Re: Case Gauges

Post by Dave C. on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:34 pm

Get a case gauge if it instills confidence in your ammo.
Another way is to REMOVE YOUR BARREL FROM THE GUN
and use that as a gauge. If it drops in freely it's OK.

Be safe and have fun
Dave C.

Dave C.

Posts : 176
Join date : 2011-06-13

Back to top Go down

Re: Case Gauges

Post by sixftunda on Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:08 pm

I use my barrel also. Never had a problem.

sixftunda

Posts : 428
Join date : 2012-05-18
Age : 44
Location : North Central Ohio

Back to top Go down

Re: Case Gauges

Post by DavidR on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:36 am

If your loader is set up right you wont need a gauge, you need a good resizing die and you need a consistent crimp, .467-.469 if you crimp any lighter you could have failure to feed issues.

DavidR
Admin

Posts : 2859
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 62
Location : NRA:Expert, Georgia

Back to top Go down

Re: Case Gauges

Post by John on Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:14 pm

"you need a consistent crimp, .467-.469"



How about crimping to .461--.462. Don't want the bullet to fall out. Makes for sure functioning. john

John

Posts : 41
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Oregon

Back to top Go down

Re: Case Gauges

Post by DavidR on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:07 am

John wrote:"you need a consistent crimp, .467-.469"



How about crimping to .461--.462. Don't want the bullet to fall out. Makes for sure functioning. john

It darn sure wont fall out with that but it will be so deformed it will loose a lot of accuracy., There is no need for anything below .467

DavidR
Admin

Posts : 2859
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 62
Location : NRA:Expert, Georgia

Back to top Go down

Re: Case Gauges

Post by Al on Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:39 am

While all my current Kart barrels agree with DavidR's assesment, my first Kart would not hold a group until I got the taper crimp down below .465. You wouldn't believe the components I wasted trying to find my load. In retrospect I think it was just a bad pipe, because all 3 of my current BE 1911's with Kart barrels love the more traditional .469-.470.

If memory servs me correctly (and trust me it rarely does), didn't Steve Giles post several years back about his Dad (John Giles) setting up the throats in his creations to shoot 3.5 of Bullseye behind a H&G 130 with a very heavy crimp .463-.465.

Al

Posts : 300
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 61
Location : Bismarck, ND

Back to top Go down

Re: Case Gauges

Post by John on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:08 pm

David R. Re: Case Gauges
"It darn sure wont fall out with that but it will be so deformed it will loose a lot of accuracy., There is no need for anything below .467"



David R. Evidently you have not tried machine rest testing of tightly crimped, cast bullets. The .461/ .462 crimp has been used with outstanding results (small groups) for over 50 years. Try it--you will like it, John

John

Posts : 41
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Oregon

Back to top Go down

Re: Case Gauges

Post by John on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:18 pm

Al: "to shoot 3.5 of Bullseye behind a H&G 130 with a very heavy crimp .463-.465"

Giles recommended load (with test target) that was sent along with the 45 was 4.2 grains of Bullseye---H & G #68 (200 gr)---.463 taper crimp--John

John

Posts : 41
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Oregon

Back to top Go down

Re: Case Gauges

Post by Al on Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:31 pm

See!!!

Memory...need to get me some:) Smile

Al

Posts : 300
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 61
Location : Bismarck, ND

Back to top Go down

Re: Case Gauges

Post by DavidR on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:13 pm

John wrote:David R. Re: Case Gauges
"It darn sure wont fall out with that but it will be so deformed it will loose a lot of accuracy., There is no need for anything below .467"



David R. Evidently you have not tried machine rest testing of tightly crimped, cast bullets. The .461/ .462 crimp has been used with outstanding results (small groups) for over 50 years. Try it--you will like it, John

Ive ransome tested thousands of loads and never found the need to crimp lower than .465 and that was only on the thinnest cases like Remington, which i dont use anymore.Very tight crimps tend to deform the bullet, which effects accuracy but if it works for you then great. I read Giles info years ago, but since he cast his own bullets and there was no mention of what he sized them to nor what type cases he used along with the tool used to measure there is no way to know if his .463 was that or larger due to human or mechanical error. I will still say .467 -.469 is the best, and you can even go lighter to .470 or .472 but anything over .469 can cause failure to feed issues in some guns. In measuring crimp, most times 3 people measuring the same bullet will have 3 different readings. Crimp to whatever you like best, but ive proved to myself thru many tests in many 1911 bullseye guns that you cant go wrong in accuracy or function with .467-.469

DavidR
Admin

Posts : 2859
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 62
Location : NRA:Expert, Georgia

Back to top Go down

Re: Case Gauges

Post by Jack H on Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:58 pm

here is an article

From
In My Experience
Dec 1992 American Rifleman

More On Taper
Crimp

Editor:
In my gunsmithing days ('51-'83) I
specialized in target pistols, primarily .45s. Early on I would get
customer complaints where the gun failed to go completely into
battery, i.e. the slide did not go all the way forward. Nearly always
the cause was a reload with a short case.

The case had been
flared to receive the bullet and the standard roll crimp did not
quite remove the flare. Or alternatively, the customer believed the
case should not be crimped at all and the roll crimp failed to
straighten the flare which would hang up in the taper of the .45
chamber. The answer, of course, was to sort the cases carefully,
eliminating the short ones. As usual, not everyone wanted to
bother.

Another disadvantage of the roll crimp was that the
degree of crimp varied directly with the length of the case. Long
case, hard crimp - short case, no crimp. This caused not only
malfunction but inaccuracy as well. Since I test fired every gun at
least 100 rounds and guaranteed a specific level of accuracy. I
looked for a way to avoid trimming all cases to a standard length.
But I could not afford to discard the short ones.

My previous
toolmaking and inventing experience led me to the tapered crimp. It
requires a separate operation, of course, but has several advantages
over the roll crimp.

One was that a slight difference in case
length made little difference in the degree of crimp.

Another
was that cases lasted a lot longer before splitting. The taper crimp
did not “work“ case mouth brass as severely as the roll crimp.
Crimp-caused malfunctions were eliminated.

The taper crimp
also prevented telescoping, where the bullet slides back in the case
when it hits the loading ramp.

Finally I seldom had to discard
a case because it was short. So what kind of accuracy are we talking
about for these taper crimped reloads? First a bit more history.

It
soon became apparent that my time would be better spent if I bought
reloads even though I had two Star reloaders. Fortunately, I knew a
few really capable reloaders. Gene Wilson and Joe Maszk come to mind.
Frank Shuster was a top bullet caster also. Joe Mazak loaded sample
quantities of those good bullets with powder charges from 3.3 to 4.4
grs. of Bullseye, taper crimped to about .463” at the case mouth
gave the best accuracy. Cases were all one kind and loaded on Joe's
Star machine. Seldom did I see factory ammo that would shoot as well,
and when I did, the military guys had it.

And the numbers?
Well, I made more than 4,000 target .45s over the years and must
certainly have fired at least half a million taper crimped .45
reloads. I guaranteed each .45 capable of shooting five shots into
1-3/4 in at 50 yds. and fired an average 1-1/4 in test group. My
personal best from a Colt .45 was 5 shots in .39 in. at 50 yds. And I
had a fair number of groups at sub in. Under 1 in. was not uncommon
at all. I didn't always send the best test group with the pistol but
I did always include loading data. I designed a taper crimper for the
Star machine so there was no extra operation. Ernest Whalen of
Heatbath Corp. made and marketed the taper crimper for a number of
years, paying a small royalty for use of my design.

My
customers had most of the above info. Guess I should have made it
available to all handgunners. But I tend to put things off, like
trimming cases, for instance.

John E. Giles Odessa, Fla

Jack H

Posts : 971
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 67
Location : Duckburg, Orygun

Back to top Go down

Re: Case Gauges

Post by DavidR on Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:42 pm

Same article as i read a decade ago, his info is true and works, but i still question his .463, in my tests it was too much, but then we probily measure different. I use a very light touch at the very end of the case mouth, as taught to me by a friend who is a machinist. I have seen many others use a tighter grip and those crimps appear as more crimp. I would suggest that if you want to crimp to a tighter tolerance then do some testing to see what works best in your gun.

DavidR
Admin

Posts : 2859
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 62
Location : NRA:Expert, Georgia

Back to top Go down

Re: Case Gauges

Post by Jack H on Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:39 pm

I measure my crimps at setup with a Starrett dial caliper and regularly during a load run. I look under a magnifying lamp and set the caliper jaws thin ends 1/2 on and 1/2 off the edge of the case mouth. The Starrett is checked at 0 and with a 1" standard. I crimp tight, like 463-466. I am beginning to think it is more important to size and expand so the lead base is not squeezed down. The crimp is not on the base so I don't worry about it.

Jack H

Posts : 971
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 67
Location : Duckburg, Orygun

Back to top Go down

Re: Case Gauges

Post by BE Mike on Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:40 am

I don't question John Giles. He really was tops. Back then, I think he was using a Star reloader and dies. His barrels and/or chambers may have been different than today's. He may have been using a different bullet than what we use today. All I know is that this subject came up several years ago on the old Bullseye-L. I couldn't replicate testing of crimps using his equipment, so I tested the guns I had. I used an accurized pistol with Kart barrel and bushing. I used a Dillon press with Dillon dies. I tested rounds of proven accuracy with a crimp around .470" and rounds crimped to around .463". I used Star 185 gr. swaged hollow point bullets and then Nosler 185 gr. JHP bullets. Using the .470" crimp, the groups measured around 3" with the Star bullets and a little over 2" with the Nosler bullets. When the crimp was increased to the .463" the groups just about doubled in size.

BE Mike

Posts : 1145
Join date : 2011-07-29
Location : Indiana

Back to top Go down

Re: Case Gauges

Post by John on Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:25 am

Gentlemen: This forum is to express different ideas/ways to make a more accurate gun/load. Hopefully we will all learn a little and try different methods to arrive at the common goal---more X's. To comment on BE Mike's testing. The best/only progressive around in the 50's and 60's was the Star. Giles loads were produced on the star. Perhaps the Dillon taper crimp die crimps in a diferent manner???

The .462 crimp only produces great results using hard cast bullets (in any of my tests) The tight crimp makes no difference using soft, swedged bullets or probably should not be used with jacketed bullets.

One of the most important items to keep track of in reloading lead handgun bullets is bullet size. Much more important than a couple grains differance in bullet weight. Most on this forum appear to buy bullets. A lot of the cast, mass produced bullets I have measured are UNDERSIZED! One of the easiest ways to load an innacurate bullet is to shoot a .451 bullet in a barrel that is made for a .452 bullet. Solution---measure a few bullets before buying OR cast your own! I (and others) have had excellent results using oversize cast bullets but that is a topic for another rant.

Just a note in passing. I have been machine rest testing various guns, loads, novel (strange) ideas in handguns/loads for almost 50 years though I probably have not tested as many as DavidR I do have a few years experience. John

John

Posts : 41
Join date : 2011-06-10
Location : Oregon

Back to top Go down

Re: Case Gauges

Post by Bruce M on Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:22 pm

I use a case gauge.

Bruce M

Posts : 21
Join date : 2012-10-28
Age : 54
Location : Huntington, Indiana

Back to top Go down

Re: Case Gauges

Post by Sponsored content Today at 2:10 am


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum