Help with Timed and Rapid symptom

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Help with Timed and Rapid symptom

Post by inthebeech on 3/14/2013, 7:43 am

For the entire indoor league (50 feet) now there has always been a dramatic shift in POI between slow and the T/R stages and I'd like some advice on where I can look / what I can work on. With both 22 and the 45, all in the black slow fire, the POI shifts to nearly off the paper (nine o'clock) for T & R in addition to opening up dramatically (6 inch groups). It is not as exagerated for 22 (on paper but near the edge) as it is for the 45 (very near the edge and usually a few rounds OFF the paper.

I have experimented with exagerating the finger placement and line of force of the shooting finger so that I am actually, consciously placing the pad on the far side (left) of the trigger and pullng towards the right while squeezing, with no effect. I do recognize that I sometimes finish a T or R string and notice that my finger tips are applying moderate force on the left grip panel while in SF I am very conscious to only squeeze the front and back straps.

I am also more consciously squeezing the trigger in T and R (timing it with that instantaneous good sight picture) while the SF break is an honest surprise and I am very pleased with the progress here as my groups have shrunk from taking up the whole paper to everything in the black, over the course of the three months of this indoor league.

That's as much information as I can recall at the moment; hopefully this will point your advice to something that I can try to remedy this. Mad

Thanks,

Ed
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Re: Help with Timed and Rapid symptom

Post by BE Mike on 3/14/2013, 8:19 am

Tight grip = tight group. Use the same consistent grip for all phases. Focus on bringing the trigger straight to the rear. This may require that you adjust your grip on the pistol. Make sure that you have enough trigger finger on the trigger for adequate leverage, but not so much that you are applying side pressure to it. In timed and rapid, the pressure should be applied before the sights are aligned. IOW, don't wait for perfect sight alignment before applying trigger pressure. Hope this helps.
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Re: Help with Timed and Rapid symptom

Post by Guest on 3/14/2013, 6:37 pm

BE Mike wrote:Tight grip = tight group. Use the same consistent grip for all phases. Focus on bringing the trigger straight to the rear. This may require that you adjust your grip on the pistol. Make sure that you have enough trigger finger on the trigger for adequate leverage, but not so much that you are applying side pressure to it. In timed and rapid, the pressure should be applied before the sights are aligned. IOW, don't wait for perfect sight alignment before applying trigger pressure. Hope this helps.

Great advice!

Chip

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Re: Help with Timed and Rapid symptom

Post by SMBeyer on 3/14/2013, 10:19 pm

Ed,
I'll add a little to BE Mike's post. Everything he says is good advice but I think a little more to the grip comment might help. Tight grip = tight group yes but how tight? Only you can figure this out. You want to grip the pistol as tight as you can without interfering with the trigger fingers ability to move freely and smoothly. The tight grip will solid up the entire arm-wrist, forearm, elbow, and shoulder. Too tight a grip and it can cause you to only be able to jerk the trigger. Too loose a grip and the pistol will be "swimming" in your hand. Kinda flopping around all over the place. Think of your grip as your foundation, without it you have nothing to build on.

Now to my thoughts. Sounds to me like you have developed a pretty good jerk of the trigger. Your coment of a conscious squeeze timing it with the instantaneous good sight picture is snatching at the shot. Trying to grab that ten when you see it resulting in the jerk causing the shot to go left (i'm assuming you are a right handed shooter). I don't know if you are shooting irons or a dot but if it's a dot you should be able to see the dot make a "J" when you are jerking it. It's not always easy to recognize that you are jerking the trigger because you can have a good smooth squeeze right up to that milisecond before the shot breaks then jerk it to get it to break.

My suggestion is to dryfire. But what do you do when dryfiring? It has to be productive and working on the good instead of just reinforcing the bad that you are already doing. I feel the key to good sustained fire is the first shot. Get the first shot off well and quickly and the next four will follow along in it's place. If you get the first shot off quickly you will feel comfortable and not rushed for the next four. Quickly does not mean forced or the instant you can see the black of the target. So here is what I would do. If you don't have range comands on an mp3 player or something similar get them. Dryfire using the range comands just like in a match and work on getting the first shot off within 2-3 seconds timed and 1-1.5 seconds rapid. Now with this single shot dryfire look for what happens to the dot the instant the shot breaks. Of course your gonna have some movement in the dot because it is always moving but you want to look for that consistent movement of the dot towards the 9 0'clock. That movement is the jerk that you are wanting to get rid of. Keep working on that first shot dryfire smoothly and quickly straight back until you can eliminate that tendancy for the dot to want to move left. Now after a while dryfiring you will think you have it under control and go shoot live shots and it might come back. This is normal but hopefully it won't be as far out and you can keep reeling it in until you are keeping them in the black. Dryfiring can be mind numbingly boring so only do it as long as you can keep focused on what you are doing and then quit when you loose focus. Even if it's only for a couple of minutes here and there whenever you hapen to walk past the gun safe. Just make sure the shots you take are with complete focus on what you are doing.

So now you have the first shot down only four more to go! Do not try to make them perfect and do not only apply pressure to the trigger when the sights or dot look right, this will only cause the snatching to come back. First shot is good, gun is in recoil starting to come back down into your aiming area, start applying pressure as you are coming back down and continue that pressure until the shot breaks again not trying to make the shot break only when perfect (let your subconscious do that part), repeat, repeat, target turns back and you are done. Work on applying pressure before you think you are ready. You will get some shots that will probably be way high at first but that is ok. That just proves to you that you are applying pressure to the trigger. The more you work on this the more you will find that shots will automatically break when the dot comes back to the black and you will be getting more and more good shots.

This is not an easy game and you probably wont fix this in a weekend. It takes time but you will be able to fix it if you work at it. But you have to work at it not just go to the range and shoot. Good luck, hope this makes sense, Scott
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Re: Help with Timed and Rapid symptom

Post by inthebeech on 3/15/2013, 7:57 am

Thanks guys. There is good material here to work on. To answer your question Mike, I use a irons on both guns.

Your advice here has gotten me to think about this and that's what I had hoped for. At this point then I have the following scenario which really describes two problems (challenges).

Perhaps what is happening is that the instant I feel the trigger break, I abandon the focus that needs to remain through the shot (and which would show me that I am jerking the trigger). This is problem one. I suspect that this would not be so bad if I did not also have natural muscle memory that does not apply pressure directly rearward. This is problem two. Problem one is new to me and I am grateful that you pointed it out. I think you're right. Problem two I knew about. I had already noticed this through an exercise I've done often; focusing on the muzzle when I simply apply and release force on the trigger (empty gun, hammer down). I have spent much time on this same drill until the muzzle did not move with repeated application and release of force. I believe this is the cause of my steady improvement in SF but perhaps in T and R my natural motions, which are NOT linear (yet), take over because of the aforementioned problem one- abandoning the controlled focus too soon. Kind of like a baseball player throwing accurately when he has time to use proper footwork and arm motion, but makes a poor throw when hurried.

I'll do some DF with the goal of seeing what happens to the sight picture durring those few milliseconds after the sear breaks.

Where can I get one of those cameras that folks aparently mount to their glasses or something? Does my smartphone do this? If so I'll just duct tape it to my face. Razz
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Re: Help with Timed and Rapid symptom

Post by Rob Kovach on 3/15/2013, 7:34 pm

Can you post a picture of your grip and trigger finger position?
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Re: Help with Timed and Rapid symptom

Post by Toz35m on 3/18/2013, 3:29 pm

You could also benefit from some 2 shot drills. Try and shoot 2 10's in either 20s or 10s. Once you have this mastered try 3. Then 4 shots and then move on to normal 5 shot training.
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Re: Help with Timed and Rapid symptom

Post by inthebeech on 3/20/2013, 8:27 am

Toz, the one guy with any BE experience that also shoots with us indoors said exactly the same thing; you can not snatch a shot so start working on speeding up your same SF technique (in which I am genuinely surprised at the break and am seeing good results) until it is identical but faster. "It is better to get two in the black out of your string and run out of time than five completely off the paper." Then set a goal to achieve three, then four...

Rob,

I am getting an error message when trying to upload a photo of my grip. Can you sent me a PM with an e-mail and I'll send it that way.



Ed
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Re: Help with Timed and Rapid symptom

Post by Rob9mmshooter on 4/19/2013, 8:43 pm

Well I have had the same problem outdoor for the last several years. But my result ends up at about 8:00 o'clock. The solution is first make sure that the grip and stance are such that when you return to the target from recoil the dot is in the black. Second but most important is put pressure on the trigger as soon as you start to recover from recoil and continue to pull until the round goes off. It will not matter that the dot is in the center just keep the dot in the black. It should feel like you are pulling the trigger and then pushing the shot into the center of the target.

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Re: Help with Timed and Rapid symptom

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/19/2013, 9:13 pm

kovach_robert@hotmail.com
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Re: Help with Timed and Rapid symptom

Post by DeweyHales on 4/20/2013, 7:56 am

Trigger control. 2 shot drills will help you work through it.
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Re: Help with Timed and Rapid symptom

Post by Wingshot on 4/20/2013, 7:15 pm

I've been reading with interest and have a somewhat different issue. Shooting indoor rimfire, my slow fire scores are dismal. Timed and rapid seem to draw me into the black. I'm using a dot, I'm right handed and I do dry fire drills at home, but obviously, I'm missing out on something.
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Re: Help with Timed and Rapid symptom

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/20/2013, 9:30 pm

Wingshot. You should start a new thread so others who have slow fire problems can get help from your thread.
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Re: Help with Timed and Rapid symptom

Post by Wingshot on 4/20/2013, 10:33 pm

Will do. Thanks!
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Re: Help with Timed and Rapid symptom

Post by Kermit Workman on 8/12/2013, 10:27 pm

I always use the slogan of "Trigger...Sights....Sights" when shooting timed and rapid. Get on the trigger align the sights the best you can before the pistol fires.

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Re: Help with Timed and Rapid symptom

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