Jerking the trigger!

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Jerking the trigger!

Post by Swarfmonger on Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:36 am

Hello Everyone,
I have an unusual problem I was hoping someone might have some insight on how to fix. When I started trying to shoot bullseye at my local 50 ft. Range about 1 1/2 years ago with my 1911, I quickly noticed I had a bad habit of jerking the trigger as my shots would typically be 6's or worse at 8:00. After a while, I built a marvel and eventually added a roll trigger to it and both helped my problem dramatically! Now I could hold the black with relative ease with only the occasional 8:00 shot when I tried to get off a quick shot when a good sight picture suddenly presented itself. I shot this setup for about 10 months exclusively.

So last week I smithed up a roll trigger for my 1911 and took it to the range figuring I would be performing the same as I has with the Marvel,right? WRONG!

It was as is all of the training with the .22 never happened! My trigger control has went from a slow, deliberate squeeze back to a panicked jerk! As much as it embarrasses me to admit it, I am starting to conclude I have a subliminal fear of the heavier recoiling 1911.

I am really at a loss of where to go from here. Dry firing? Ball and dummy drills, I don't know. Any advice or suggestions anyone might have would be greatly appreciated! If there is anything I have left out that might help pinpointing the solution to the problem, please feel free to ask,

Regards to all,
Dave


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Re: Jerking the trigger!

Post by BE Mike on Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:54 am

Are the weights of the triggers the same? If they are both, say 3.5# triggers, I would say you just need to start shooting the .45 more and focusing on follow-through. After a while you will get used to the extra noise and recoil of the .45. Ball and dummy is good, as is shooting at the back of a target.


Last edited by BE Mike on Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Jerking the trigger!

Post by Swarfmonger on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:11 am

Thanks for the reply! The triggers are as identical as I can tell. They are both set at 4.75 since I started doing this mainly to shoot EIC matches. I will try the back of a target with emphasis on follow through tonight, thAnk you!

Dave

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Re: Jerking the trigger!

Post by Ryan Co on Wed Jun 05, 2013 12:21 pm

I am in the same boat. I shot my second 1800 match last Sunday, I shot an 786 with rimfire and 690 with centerfire(45acp). I need to start shooting my 45 more and focusing on trigger control.

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Re: Jerking the trigger!

Post by DavidR on Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:55 pm

Roll triggers on 1911s require more control than a crisp so you exaggerated the problem. Why have a nearly 5 lb trigger when only a 4 lb is required for EIC guns? I would drop the trigger weight to the required minimum or no more than .25 lb heavier if EIC is still your goal, otherwise drop them both to 3.5.if you want to see faster progress.











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Re: Jerking the trigger!

Post by Rob Kovach on Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:56 pm

2nd what David R said.
My goal is also my distinguished badge, and 4.0000001lbs is what my .45 is set for. (and it passes the test at the range)
There is a huge difference between a 3.5lbs and 4lbs trigger. I would say is cost me 20-30 points at first. You can make it much easier on yourself by dropping the triggers down to 4lbs. After you do, with all of your practice at 4.75, I would bet your problem will be much improved.
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Re: Jerking the trigger!

Post by Art on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:37 pm

Swarf,
I've been just where you describe.
I've flinched, heeled, thumbed and milked all in one shot for a beautiful spiral movement of the red dot into the 5 ring more times than I want to recall.
I attended a Zins/Moody bullseye clinic last fall and Brian said all those things are ANTIPATING! and he said don't do that, but didn't elaborate on how not to do that. He did suggest that if you develop a shot process there's less opportunity for things to go bad.
I found the 2 lb trigger on my 1911 Marvel is much easier to shoot and to learn how not to anticipate the noise and recoil.
I also found a good short to medium roll trigger is easier to shoot than a hard/crisp breaking trigger.
For me the roll gives me a nano second, probably a bit more to get the dot moving toward the center of the black.
I still struggle with the anticipating - concentrating on the dot, knowing that the gun will fire if I increase the pressure on the trigger helped.
Squirt the Clown has helped me mostly in Timed and Rapid - the carnival game where you squirt water at the clown's mouth till the ball rises to the top???? That requires you concentrate on the where the water hits while keeping the trigger pulled - I don't play the game except in my mind.
In Slow Fire I just concentrate on the dot while the trigger pressure is increased. It's about doing what is needed to get the bullet in the 10 ring and not doing anything else. It's the all the other things we do that keeps the bullet out of the 10 ring - those are the things we have to be aware of and stop doing those - easy to write and talk about but difficult to not do.
Being able to call shots and being aware of when shots go awry took me a lot of shooting and I'm still not always totally aware of what I did wrong.
Dry firing and looking really hard at what the dot or front sight does as the shot breaks seems to me to be the best practice.
A quiet mind concentrating on only what is needed to shoot a 10 and nothing else has benefited me.
The diagnostic target http://www.bullseyepistol.com/training.htm can give some insight to what you're doing can help but I found it a bit overwhelming, I found myself chasing every part of it during a 10 shot slow fire. I would suggest it as informational at best.
Hope this helps,
Art

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Re: Jerking the trigger!

Post by SMBeyer on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:48 pm

I would also say to really work on applying pressure to the trigger from the moment you are coming back down from recoil recovery. When you are applying ever increasing pressure on the way down to the black you will begin to see the gun go off when it needs to not when you want it to. You will know when you are applying good pressure when you get the occasional shot that goes off before you get back settled. It will startle you a little the first time but then you will know that you are doing the right thing.
Scott
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Re: Jerking the trigger!

Post by Rob Kovach on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:52 pm

2nd on that one too. Especially with a roll trigger. I have very long roll triggers and if I don't do it like SMBeyer says, I'm late in rapid fire. and the shots are better too.
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Re: Jerking the trigger!

Post by Ed Hall on Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:56 pm

You might find the following link helpful. It was written based on scope use, but if you're using open sights, just swap in front sight for dot and rear sight for tube. Also. if you are using open sights, be sure to keep your focus on the front sight rather than trying to look over it to see where you hit. You can check hits later.(smile)

Improving Hold and Trigger Manipulation

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Re: Jerking the trigger!

Post by BE Mike on Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:57 am

Besides the good suggestion of lowering the weight of the triggers to within a quarter of a pound of the minimum allowed by the rules, I would also suggest taking up some weight with the trigger finger before you are settled in your aiming area.
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Re: Jerking the trigger!

Post by Jack H on Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:47 am

I can not quite put my finger on what is a good trigger (ha ha). Long, short, roll, crisp, heavy, light, all have a common denominator. What works best is the trigger that does not distract from the process. Distraction might be closely related to the "anticipation" idea. And triggers are so individually perceived. I recently played with the adjustments on a 208s. I perceive the slack and first stage as one long slack takeup. Then a definite bump stop for a final single stage pull. The trigger lifts 2.75-3 pounds mostly in the very short second stage. Roddy tried the trigger and perceived it totally different. Roddy did not feel the bump stop, which is when the trigger tang hits on the plunger thingy. To me the 2.75-3 pounds feels very light. And it is not totally crisp. I can see movement like a very short roll. Main thing is I feel it as an easy, quality pull. Easy does not mean light. Another trigger I have , on a N-45 S&W, also lifts 3 pounds, but feels like a hair trigger. No signs of pushoff either. It is very easy to pull and does not distract.
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Re: Jerking the trigger!

Post by Swarfmonger on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:36 pm

Thanks for all of the help folks, I really appreciate it! Update: I tweaked my trigger weight down to about 4 1/8 pounds and took it to the range for some practice, WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!!!

While all of my shots were not perfect 90% of them were on call. The only time I found myself jerking the trigger was when I started reverting back to my bad habit of breking a quick shot the second a good sight picture presented itself which has always served me well shooting offhand with a service rifle but seems to be a loser for someone with my level of expertise with a service pistol.

I also plan on trying the other advice the was posted after my session tomorrow. Thanks again so much!

Dave

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Re: Jerking the trigger!

Post by bgw45 on Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:13 pm

An instructor at my range was discussing this issue: Jerking/Slapping. Since this is a mental/emotional response to an explosion less than 3 1/2 feet from our head our brains automatically respond in a manner detrimental to our purpose. Having all the basic tools..... good trigger, sights, accurate pistol, shot sequence are still necessary but won't avoid the flinch issue. 

His son came up with this mental process. When we were kids and someone came up behind and popped a balloon we jumped. When we would step up behind someone else and pop a balloon behind them, we did not jump since we knew what to expect. We caused the pop. So, simple as it seems, if we remember we are the sole cause of the recoil/noise we can conquer the unwanted reflex. He has used this analogy with several students with success. 

It makes sense to me. YMMV

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