FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Go down

FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by Biebs on 10/9/2013, 1:09 pm

The widow of a local Korean War vet asked me to help move out his firearms, and 3 are 1911 pistols. One is a Series 70 with some target modifications, but the other 2 are US ARMY, and the frames are National Match, with the SA (Springfield Armory) stamps, the T for Target, the NM on the trigger guard, stippled grips, etc. Both frames show the proof initials of FJA (Frank J Atwood of Ithaca). One of these has an aftermarket target slide by Clark Heavy Slides, and a Bomar rib on top of that. However, the best one looks to be all original, with the NM 7791735 slide from Colt Mfg, the 7267718 NM front bushing, and "45 Auto, NM 7791414", and the same serial number as the frame on the barrel as seen through the ejection port.

I'd like to price these as accurately as possible to help out the widow. If you deal in or collect this type of weaponry, or might want to make an offer, shoot me a PM....I'd appreciate it. Email is jbieber52@aol.com.

Biebs



Biebs

Posts : 12
Join date : 2013-10-09

Back to top Go down

Re: FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by spursnguns on 10/9/2013, 2:03 pm

Hello,

What city are you in?

Jim
avatar
spursnguns

Posts : 312
Join date : 2013-01-04
Age : 60
Location : Gilroy, California

Back to top Go down

Re: FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by Biebs on 10/9/2013, 2:08 pm

Jim, I'm in very northern NJ, where it meets NY state and PA.

Biebs

Posts : 12
Join date : 2013-10-09

Back to top Go down

Re: FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by JLK on 10/9/2013, 2:36 pm

The one on the left could be a Giles.
You can read some more about him here:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=77262

The one on the right appears to be a Clark.  You can check the bottom of the slide to see if the last
numbers of the frame serial# are stamped in as well as the month and year converted.

The middle gun...the top end is consistent with a GI National Match pistol but someone with more then my meager
expertise will have to weigh in on that one.
Nice guns!
JLK
avatar
JLK

Posts : 147
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 67
Location : NE Ohio

Back to top Go down

Re: FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by Biebs on 10/9/2013, 2:42 pm

JLK, thanks...I thought maybe he just added the slides, but perhaps they're custom conversions. I'll check that out. I think I've got the US ARMY National Match all figured out. There are a couple sites that show step-by-step what to look for (marks, parts numbers, proofs, etc) and it fits to a "T".

Biebs

Posts : 12
Join date : 2013-10-09

Back to top Go down

Re: FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by Biebs on 10/10/2013, 8:22 am

JLK, You're right! It is a full Clark custom, with the last 3 digits of the serial number on the bottom of the slide, as well as the 6-75 build date. Thanks for the tip.

Jon

Biebs

Posts : 12
Join date : 2013-10-09

Back to top Go down

Re: FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by Biebs on 10/10/2013, 4:34 pm

The Giles sold today to a very knowledgeable forum member here. Offers on the others?

Biebs

Posts : 12
Join date : 2013-10-09

Back to top Go down

Re: FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by Colt711 on 10/14/2013, 9:43 pm

PM sent
thanks
Ron

Colt711

Posts : 429
Join date : 2012-06-07
Age : 76
Location : Hudson, Florida

Back to top Go down

Re: FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by Biebs on 10/15/2013, 3:20 pm

Folks, the pistol on the right is a Clark Custom, but built on a US ARMY National Match frame. Clark Heavy Slide did the build in 6-75. It just may be the only Clark built on a genuine US ARMY National Match. What was somebody thinking!!!  :-)
I have it listed for $1,575 on one of the websites.


Last edited by Biebs on 10/15/2013, 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added info)

Biebs

Posts : 12
Join date : 2013-10-09

Back to top Go down

Re: FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by GrumpyOldMan on 10/15/2013, 11:48 pm

The one in the middle has grooves consistent with a Colt Gold Cup.  ??Details of the top of the slide?? Those were originally made with a sort of flat-top rib maybe 0.40-ish inch wide on top, with fine longitudinal grooves.

But they also came with rear sights held in a slot with a small cross-pin, and what I see is a regular dovetail mount and Triangle brand type sight (I remember Micro not having the totally flat rear face, and don't recall whether Bo-Mars had the big flat face or the round thing below the blade...)

IIRC, Colt made unfinished or at least not high-gloss polished slides and sold them to the military in their Match pistol building programs from the late 1950s on to some date maybe in the 1960s. That sight is different from a Gold Cup, and so is the USGI style safety. 

BTW, the one on the left has a Gold Cup style safety, complete with polished blue finish.

I can try to look up info on those slides if you want.

GrumpyOldMan

Posts : 457
Join date : 2013-03-07
Location : High Desert Southwest Red Rock Country

Back to top Go down

Re: FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by JLK on 10/16/2013, 2:35 am

The middle pistol is not a Gold Cup slide.
Follow this link to the paragraph beginning with "In 1954 the Army....".

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=43503

I've tried to attach a picture of the pistol I earned my Distinguished badge with.
When I built it in the early 1970's NOS GI NM slides, barrels and bushings were available at
gun shows.  That's what my pistol was built with.
Also, the safety on the Giles pistol is consistent with a commercial colt, not just a Gold Cup.
Thanks!
JLK
Attachments
P3190002.JPG You don't have permission to download attachments.(57 Kb) Downloaded 15 times
avatar
JLK

Posts : 147
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 67
Location : NE Ohio

Back to top Go down

Re: FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by Biebs on 10/16/2013, 6:01 am

The National Match 1911 guns assembled at Springfield in 1966-67 used slides NM7791435 made by Colt Manufacturing ad sent to Springfield for the National Match pistols. They used front bushing NM 7267718. The barrels, as viewed through the ejection port, read in 3 lines:  "45 AUTO", then "NM  7791414", and then the guns serial number under that. The frame will show the 2 "T" stamps (Target) in front of and behind the trigger guard, as well as SA (Springfield Arsenal) stamps, and NM on the trigger guard below the frame.

The term Gold Cup usually refers to target guns made by Colt on Government (non-military) frames.


Biebs

Posts : 12
Join date : 2013-10-09

Back to top Go down

Re: FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by GrumpyOldMan on 10/16/2013, 8:47 am

Yes, the middle one is definitely an Army NM build.

Info here: [url=http://www.coolgunsite.com/images/1911/drake nm/national_match_notes.htm]http://www.coolgunsite.com/images/1911/drake%20nm/national_match_notes.htm[/url]

puts it from what I can see as being built up in 1960 or 1961, if the 7 digits after NM on the slide are the serial number. If the rear sight is Micro and original, it would be 1961. My Dad was shooting Bullseye at this time, and what I remember from that period was that replacing sights and barrels and triggers was pretty common.

What I first found indicated part numbers for those slant-cut slides were six digits.

It also appears that the much-valued and extra-hard finished slides by Drake were used only in 1964, but those did not have the serial number on the slide.

BUTBUTBUTBUT, 
It looks like that is not a serial number and the first three digits are 779 (I first thought it was 719), the previous part number (ending in 5) is described as in the one used on the highly-sought after Drake slide here: http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=422667. Whether that one (on the 1911 forum) is a Drake slide gun on an earlier build, or perhaps a DCM-sale regular gun home-built to NM using a later Drake slide obtained from wherever, is beyond my current ability to research.

But Biebs describes 7-digit part numbers on slides and barrels, which puts another twist on it. That appears right, from at least three other sources I've now found. This one cites an Army Tech Manual from early 1968 indicating a change by that time to part number 77 http://forum.m1911.org/archive/index.php/t-920.html

The front sight is the booger for me. I'm familiar with big ones with a slight undercut, and have heard of ones with serrated ramps. But that particular shape I thought was only on various custom builds and not on the SA arsenal builds.  Most sources only describe the width and total height....

That's not the Triangle rear sight. They have a drum-shaped part below the blade for the windage screw. Heard once about a late BE shooter who left behind a drawer full of multiple copies of something like three different types of adjustable sights. The T targeting acceptance stamp is consistent with an Army NM build, as are the grips. IF the rear sight is original to the build, the slide number would put it at 1968 or later, in my incompletely-informed opinion.

Looking around some more, it appears that all of the Army NM builds used that front sight. The rear looks like an Elliason, similar to what was pinned into the Gold Cups, but mounted in a dovetail base.

AFAIC, it's pretty valuable, but what I would peg it at would undoubtedly be higher than some people's, lower than others', dollar figures.

GrumpyOldMan

Posts : 457
Join date : 2013-03-07
Location : High Desert Southwest Red Rock Country

Back to top Go down

Re: FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by Biebs on 10/16/2013, 8:53 am

Grump, the National Match Springfield builds used slide NM7791435 in 1966 and 67, it's the same for all of them, as it's a part number or "drawing" number. The front bushings are all 7267718 as well. They ALL had those parts in those years, with no regard as to the frame serial number, which appears on the barrel.

Biebs

Posts : 12
Join date : 2013-10-09

Back to top Go down

Re: FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by Biebs on 10/16/2013, 9:08 am

If anyone is interested, I'll lower the National Match to $2,250 and the Clark built on a National Match frame to $1,425. You can email me for additional pix at jbieber52@aol.com.

Biebs

Posts : 12
Join date : 2013-10-09

Back to top Go down

Re: FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by Colt711 on 10/16/2013, 6:39 pm

There is a lot of interesting info in all of these posts. Biebs you seem to have us pointed in the right direction with the reference sites. Re; Clark building guns using NM guns, parts etc  I know that he has done them as a friend had one done. It was a nice gun and as guns, and money, were in short supply + we all had BE fever, he sent it to Clark. It came back blued and with the etched Clark msg on the slide. Yrs later he was selling a lot of guns and I tried to buy it but all he would say was "it's in very rough shape". ???

Another of our shooters owned one as a collector. Bought it in a local gun shop for a normal GI .45 price at that time. A number of yrs it sold for a tidy profit.

Colt National Match & National Match Gold Cup. The difference in these 2 is the name. Earlier ones had "Colt National Match" on the slide and at some time the "Gold Cup" was added.  Possibly concurrently? I don't know when gold cup was added but I know it was there in '65. Until recently I had one of the former. I learned it was made in late 50's or early 60's and no collector interest. My friend, and 'smith, Dave Tadder, built it into a 2" gun using a Kart brl. An excellent wad gun! Recently it was returned to original, save brl, and blued for my grandson.

This is my 2 bits. I hope I'm not presenting any wrong info. Possibly some of you can add or correct.
Ron

Colt711

Posts : 429
Join date : 2012-06-07
Age : 76
Location : Hudson, Florida

Back to top Go down

Re: FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by Colt711 on 10/16/2013, 6:56 pm

JLK wrote:The one on the left could be a Giles.
You can read some more about him here:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=77262


JLK

JLK,
What a nice set of Giles pistols. He surely was one of the best. Starting in the 70's I used his guns, excepting the .38. I have a .38 now, purchased to enable an old man to shoot a little and for a while. Thanks for the link!
Ron

Colt711

Posts : 429
Join date : 2012-06-07
Age : 76
Location : Hudson, Florida

Back to top Go down

Re: FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by Biebs on 10/17/2013, 5:49 pm

Ron, I sent pix and description to Pete. Thanks.

Jon

Biebs

Posts : 12
Join date : 2013-10-09

Back to top Go down

Re: FS US ARMY and Government 1911 Pistols

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum