What do you practice at the range?

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What do you practice at the range?

Post by Sa-tevp on 10/16/2013, 10:43 am

When I have a chance to get to an empty outdoor range on weekdays I practice with a B16 target at 25 yards and then a B6 repair center at 50 yards. Shooting two strings of five rounds at each target slow fire takes about an hour to go through a fifty round box of ammunition and if I'm lucky I have time for two hours of practice two or three times a month.

The question is what or how do you like to practice? Any suggestions for live-fire practice?

(Edited to point out that I am a beginning shooter who just received a Marksman card)


Last edited by Sa-tevp on 10/18/2013, 7:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by LongSlide on 10/16/2013, 11:11 am

The stands at my outdoor range are large enough to accommodate 2 B16 targets side-by-side.  I find this speeds things up for me without have to wait for a target check to change them.

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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by Schaumannk on 10/16/2013, 2:21 pm

Sa-tevp wrote:When I have a chance to get to an empty outdoor range on weekdays I practice with a B16 target at 25 yards and then a B6 repair center at 50 yards. Shooting two strings of five rounds at each target slow fire takes about an hour to go through a fifty round box of ammunition and if I'm lucky I have time for two hours of practice two or three times a month.

The question is what or how do you like to practice? Any suggestions for live-fire practice?
I do very little slow fire.   Just enough to check the zero on my guns.   The reason I am at the range is to practice the things I cant do at home with dry firing, and an air pistol.   That means rapid fire, targets turning, one shot drills, two shot drills, and complete strings of rapid fire.

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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by davekp on 10/17/2013, 7:36 am

My opinions:
Use the range for training- not practice. 50 yds, besides checking for zero, is a waste of time, unless you are master or high master.  I like the USMC plan. Basically, use a B-8 at 25 yds. Start with a .22.
Goal 1: keep 20 shots slow fire  all within the black. When you can do this, proceed to goal 2.
Goal 2: keep 20 shots slow fire all within the 10 ring.
Goal 3: repeat #1 for timed fire.
Goal 4: repeat #1 for rapid fire.
Repeat above with center fire, then .45, then Hardball.
When you can do this you will be shooting 2600's.

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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by Sa-tevp on 10/17/2013, 7:54 am

davekp wrote:My opinions:
Use the range for training- not practice. 50 yds, besides checking for zero, is a waste of time, unless you are master or high master.  I like the USMC plan. Basically, use a B-8 at 25 yds. Start with a .22.
Goal 1: keep 20 shots slow fire  all within the black. When you can do this, proceed to goal 2.
Goal 2: keep 20 shots slow fire all within the 10 ring.
Goal 3: repeat #1 for timed fire.
Goal 4: repeat #1 for rapid fire.
Repeat above with center fire, then .45, then Hardball.
When you can do this you will be shooting 2600's.
Excellent replies from everyone. What a great resource and community.

In my day job I teach that if your process feels more like wrestling than fencing you're doing it wrong and need to regroup/re-assess. The responses so far look to get me on the right path (and conserve my resources).
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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by BE Mike on 10/17/2013, 8:25 am

I never train for timed fire. I think it is a waste of valuable training time. I always concentrated on rapid fire, which is my weak point.
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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by s1120 on 10/17/2013, 12:55 pm

davekp wrote:My opinions:
Use the range for training- not practice. 50 yds, besides checking for zero, is a waste of time, unless you are master or high master.  I like the USMC plan. Basically, use a B-8 at 25 yds. Start with a .22.
Goal 1: keep 20 shots slow fire  all within the black. When you can do this, proceed to goal 2.
Goal 2: keep 20 shots slow fire all within the 10 ring.
Goal 3: repeat #1 for timed fire.
Goal 4: repeat #1 for rapid fire.
Repeat above with center fire, then .45, then Hardball.
When you can do this you will be shooting 2600's.
That sounds like a great starting point for a guy just starting out. Next range session I get Im going to start there, and see how I do. Thanks for posting it.

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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by Colt711 on 10/17/2013, 4:10 pm

10 or 20 shots slow fire.
10 shots timed.
As many shots as you can get in Rapid Fire.

Repeat with the .45.

Shoot as often as possible, both practice and match.
Feel the trigger at all times. Be as conscious of it's feel as possible!

Ron

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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by rvlvrlvr on 10/18/2013, 10:46 am

Generally I'll start off with 20 slow, 20 timed, 20 rapid in my .22 (red dot) - exactly like shooting a match in my local pistol league. If I'm having a bad day with either timed or rapid (usually rapid, and usually with getting my cadence/rhythm right), I'll work on that for a little while. If I'm satisfied with the 60 shots, I'll move on to centerfire/.45, generally just an National Match Course (NMC, 30 rounds/10 slow + 10 timed + 10 rapid). If there's time after that (I shoot on a public indoor range; I'm guaranteed an hour, but no longer -- if there's a wait-list going, I'll probably have to give up my lane), I'll shoot another gun, probably another NMC.

Lately, I've changed it up in preparation for an upcoming air pistol/free pistol match this weekend: I shoot an NMC with my red-dot .22, an NMC with my iron-sights .22, then 30 rounds through my freepistol, and 30 rounds through my air pistol. I leave the air pistol for last because I can shoot that at home if get kicked off my lane, but I like to shoot it at the range because of the convenience of the motorized carrier system.
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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by Ed Hall on 10/19/2013, 9:39 pm

I promote the following training, which I call a progressive drill and use myself:

Work at sustained fire distance with a sustained fire target.
Choose a ring based on your perceived capability.

Start the session with one shot.  Consider it slow, if you like, but don't take an extreme length of time.
Whether or not it is within your chosen ring, do it again - one shot.

If both landed within your chosen ring, add one round to the next step - fire two shots without lowering the gun (sustained, but not necessarily fast).

Proceed in the following manner:
Every time you perform two successful strings, add one round, up to five.
If you fail to achieve success on any string, immediately remove one round for the next string, down to one.

You don't have to load with the number of rounds you will be shooting.  Go ahead and load the maximum legal number of rounds in all magazines. If you run out of rounds in the middle of a string and the fired ones are successful, consider it as having not been shot.  But, if you are unsuccessful, consider it a failure.

An example:
1 - success
1 - success
2 - success
2 - success
3 - success
3 - failure
2 - success
2 - success
3 - success
3 - success
4 - failure
3 - success
3 - failure
2 - failure
1 - success
1 - success
2 - ...

When you consistently make it up to five shot strings, consider changing to the next ring.

I use the ten ring, but for my class, you would expect that.  On days when things are right, I do go up through the shots to five rather quickly, but on other days, it takes me a bit to get there.

I like to think this drill maximizes training and is cost effective.  It promotes success and helps you focus on achieving hits within the ring you choose.  It allows you to reward success, but lessens the failure if/when it occurs.

I think it is better to maximize good shots and minimize lesser ones.  I prefer this drill to throwing five shots down range and seeing how many made it.

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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by BE Mike on 10/20/2013, 6:50 am

Ed Hall, this is a great training plan, especially when one considers that the 2700 is 2/3 sustained fire. I've seen many top ranked shooters who just shot ok (mid 80's) in slow fire, but cleaned the short line, break 2600.
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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by john bickar on 10/20/2013, 1:12 pm

BE Mike wrote: I've seen many top ranked shooters who just shot ok (mid 80's) in slow fire, but cleaned the short line, break 2600.
Well, you would have to average 89 at the long line to be able to break 2600 by cleaning the short line, but you're on the right track Razz

I don't get much range time, especially not with bullseye, and especially especially not with the .45. I dry fire quite a bit, and when I do get range time, I essentially work on one concept:

Start the trigger moving before the front sight/dot is in the aiming area, and keep squeezing through my arc of movement.

That's for both slow and sustained fire, and that's pretty much bullseye in a nutshell.
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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by john bickar on 10/20/2013, 1:27 pm

And, two quotes from Phil Hemphill:
One:

Two:
A number of years ago, I had the good fortune of shooting the Bianchi Cup, and training with some of the top shooters in that discipline (including Phil). This was, I believe, before he had started shooting bullseye, at least seriously.

When walking off the the practice range, Phil would ask, in his slow Southern drawl:

Phil: "How'd it go?"
Me: "Eh. Not so well."
Phil: "Well, why?"

(the next day, walking off of the range)

Phil: "How'd it go?"
Me: "Pretty good, thanks!"
Phil: "Well, why?"

That right there is enough to drive the contents of your shooting diary for a year or two.
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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by BE Mike on 10/20/2013, 2:55 pm

john bickar wrote:
BE Mike wrote: I've seen many top ranked shooters who just shot ok (mid 80's) in slow fire, but cleaned the short line, break 2600.
Well, you would have to average 89 at the long line to be able to break 2600 by cleaning the short line, but you're on the right track Razz

I don't get much range time, especially not with bullseye, and especially especially not with the .45. I dry fire quite a bit, and when I do get range time, I essentially work on one concept:

Start the trigger moving before the front sight/dot is in the aiming area, and keep squeezing through my arc of movement.

That's for both slow and sustained fire, and that's pretty much bullseye in a nutshell.
I should have said that they shot mid to high 80's in centerfire to break 2600. Their .22 scores in slow fire were in the mid 90's. Of course your skill and experience far surpasses mine.
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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by Colt711 on 10/20/2013, 3:14 pm

BE Mike wrote:
 I've seen many top ranked shooters who just shot ok (mid 80's) in slow fire, but cleaned the short line, break 2600.
John Bickar
Well, you would have to average 89 at the long line to be able to break 2600 by cleaning the short line, but you're on the right track Razz
BE Mike
I should have said that they shot mid to high 80's in centerfire to break 2600. Their .22 scores in slow fire were in the mid 90's. Of course your skill and experience far surpasses mine.
I'm not a 2600 shooter but have tried to stay w/ them in a good many matches and can tell you I have seen a LOT of 96's & 97"s shot on the way to those 2600's!

Ron


Last edited by Colt711 on 10/20/2013, 3:17 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarity)

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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by john bickar on 10/20/2013, 3:56 pm

BE Mike wrote:I should have said that they shot mid to high 80's in centerfire to break 2600. Their .22 scores in slow fire were in the mid 90's. Of course your skill and experience far surpasses mine.
Just picking on you because you were the last post in the thread before I posted Razz
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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by BE Mike on 10/20/2013, 5:42 pm

Colt711 wrote:
BE Mike wrote:
 I've seen many top ranked shooters who just shot ok (mid 80's) in slow fire, but cleaned the short line, break 2600.
John Bickar
Well, you would have to average 89 at the long line to be able to break 2600 by cleaning the short line, but you're on the right track Razz
BE Mike
I should have said that they shot mid to high 80's in centerfire to break 2600. Their .22 scores in slow fire were in the mid 90's. Of course your skill and experience far surpasses mine.
I'm not a 2600 shooter but have tried to stay w/ them in a good many matches and can tell you I have seen a LOT of 96's & 97"s shot on the way to those 2600's!

Ron
My experience is that I shot a lot of pretty good slow fire scores and threw away good aggregate scores because of failure at the short line. I suppose that is why I think that the 2/3 of the match, which is the short line, is so important.
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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by LongSlide on 10/21/2013, 3:57 pm

Ed Hall wrote:I promote the following training, which I call a progressive drill and use myself:

Work at sustained fire distance with a sustained fire target.
Choose a ring based on your perceived capability.

Start the session with one shot.  Consider it slow, if you like, but don't take an extreme length of time.
Whether or not it is within your chosen ring, do it again - one shot.

If both landed within your chosen ring, add one round to the next step - fire two shots without lowering the gun (sustained, but not necessarily fast).

Proceed in the following manner:
Every time you perform two successful strings, add one round, up to five.
If you fail to achieve success on any string, immediately remove one round for the next string, down to one.

You don't have to load with the number of rounds you will be shooting.  Go ahead and load the maximum legal number of rounds in all magazines. If you run out of rounds in the middle of a string and the fired ones are successful, consider it as having not been shot.  But, if you are unsuccessful, consider it a failure.

An example:
1 - success
1 - success
2 - success
2 - success
3 - success
3 - failure
2 - success
2 - success
3 - success
3 - success
4 - failure
3 - success
3 - failure
2 - failure
1 - success
1 - success
2 - ...

When you consistently make it up to five shot strings, consider changing to the next ring.

I use the ten ring, but for my class, you would expect that.  On days when things are right, I do go up through the shots to five rather quickly, but on other days, it takes me a bit to get there.

I like to think this drill maximizes training and is cost effective.  It promotes success and helps you focus on achieving hits within the ring you choose.  It allows you to reward success, but lessens the failure if/when it occurs.

I think it is better to maximize good shots and minimize lesser ones.  I prefer this drill to throwing five shots down range and seeing how many made it.
I'm going to give this a try.  Thanks Ed.

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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by Sa-tevp on 10/21/2013, 7:36 pm

One of the qualities that I find interesting in this sport is how I will hit a plateau and someone will give me an idea at the right moment that gets me moving on again. About three months ago I would have had a hard time following Ed Hall's writings, now I'm looking up everything he has ever written. (Not to imply others here don't have very good ideas too)

I happen to like Timed and Rapid Fire. Less time to muck up the shots. Last meet I stitched a 10-X-X-X-10 with one string of fire in 22 Rapid Fire. Now to learn how to repeat it.

Thanks.


Last edited by Sa-tevp on 10/21/2013, 7:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by Schaumannk on 10/21/2013, 7:44 pm

Sa-tevp wrote:One of the qualities that I find interesting in this sport is how I will hit a plateau and someone will give me an idea at the right moment that gets me moving on again. About three months ago I would have had a hard time following Ed Hall's writings, now I'm looking up everything he has ever written.

Thanks.
Ed Hall is an excellent coach.  I wish that i lived closer to New York, as I would attempt to sign up for some live fire coaching.

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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by Sa-tevp on 10/21/2013, 7:47 pm

Yeah, I miss living in Plattsburgh and the North Country. That was back when Lake Plastered was used for the Winter Olympics.
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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by Colt711 on 10/21/2013, 7:58 pm

From reading Ed H.'s posts it is obvious he is a resourceful person. What an advantage it would be to be coached by or shoot w/ him!

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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by john bickar on 10/21/2013, 10:17 pm

BE Mike wrote:My experience is that I shot a lot of pretty good slow fire scores and threw away good aggregate scores because of failure at the short line. I suppose that is why I think that the 2/3 of the match, which is the short line, is so important.
It's all important.

Bullseye is (to quote my high school soccer coach) "not a race, it's a marathon." A one-day 2700 is an exercise in stamina as much as it is in technical shooting ability.

And it's not even a marathon, where you're expending equal effort for 4 hours. It's more like the Olympic gymnastics final, where you sit on your ass a bunch, walk around even more, and then perform like a trained monkey when the target faces.

The difference between Master and High Master is learning how to turn that switch off and back on again. You need to be hyper-focused when you are breaking a shot, but it's nigh-on-impossible to remain hyper-focused for the (5? 6? 7? 72?) hours that it takes to shoot a 2700.

To return to the OP's question, that's another thing that I train at the range: flipping that switch.
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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by john bickar on 10/21/2013, 10:21 pm

Colt711 wrote:I'm not a 2600 shooter
Hrm. I could've sworn that you were.

Regardless, I remember you putting up some big numbers, and that was pretty motivating for a certain teenager from Ohio Smile
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Re: What do you practice at the range?

Post by SteveT on 10/21/2013, 10:42 pm

+1 for Ed's progressive training. I call it the stair step drill, and it helped me make master.

To the original poster, what I train at the range depends on what I need to improve at that stage in my shooting. But I agree with the others. SF can (mostly) be trained at home through dry fire.
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