hardball pistol

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hardball pistol

Post by aloreman on Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

What would I need to do to a springfield mil spec to make it a competitive pistol

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by Rob Kovach on Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:03 pm

See the comments above--I submitted that as one of my recommendations.

I have shot one of those--it performed very well!

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by aloreman on Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:19 pm

I dont fully understand how any mods would make the badge easier to get.  At the end of the day only the top ten percent of shooters get points.  no matter what you are aloud to do to the gun top ten will still be top ten.

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by Ed Hall on Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:35 am

aloreman wrote:I dont fully understand how any mods would make the badge easier to get.  At the end of the day only the top ten percent of shooters get points.  no matter what you are aloud to do to the gun top ten will still be top ten.
Actually, there are several factors that directly affect the prestige of the award.  Unfortunately, one of those factors is the ease of competing for it.  The more matches available, the more opportunities - the more opportunities, the easier to achieve it.  And, although only the top ten percent receive points, remember that once they're Distinguished, the top ten percent of subsequent matches is from the remaining 90 percent of the previous matches.  That's why 4 matches a year and quotas for point value are a help in maintaining the prestige.

Another thing that cheapens the award is loading the line with non-shooters to boost the number of legs given, or especially so a single leg can be given.  This does not include those that are truly interested in firing the match and have at least some experience, but someone who shows up just as fodder, or is "talked into shooting so a leg can be given" is lessening the prestige of the award.  Although I don't intend to offer this idea to the CMP for consideration, I would think something along the line of requiring EIC competitors to have fired in at least one of the previous matches in the main event would be a move along the right path.

I know that it is very disappointing to drive several hours to shoot in an EIC and find there aren't enough competitors to hold a valid match, but winning against non-competitors hurts the overall importance of the badge.

Rob Kovach wrote:...
I don't know why anybody would be turned off by shooting 1 handed at 50 yards.  It's much harder to shoot a 10 on the 50 foot targets.
Ahhh, come on, the 50 ft target is extremely forgiving - you can have a .45 shot that prints its outer edge almost half way across the 8 ring and still get a 10... Smile

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by aloreman on Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:29 pm

I still dont get it. A beavertail grip safety will load the line with non competitors? Or different grip screws? It may encourage a few more competitors to come shoot. Im new to bullseye but am by far not new to eic matches and cmp games.

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by aloreman on Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:30 pm

By trying not to make it an equipment based match it has become an equiptment based match

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by aloreman on Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:34 pm

However it is my personal opinion that leg matches should be shot with guns issued at the event with factory ammo and let the best man win

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by Colt711 on Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:04 pm

Please explain; exactly what is the intent in allowing the various safeties, hammers, and grip changes such as the beavertail?

 Why would anyone complain that a certain kind of grip screw is required. Seems to me the few cents involved in this change is not of concern in the greater scheme of things. Why worry about silly changes when one might be dry firing or shooting a mental match?

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by DavidR on Tue Mar 25, 2014 2:46 pm

aloreman wrote:However it is my personal opinion that leg matches should be shot with guns issued at the event with factory ammo and let the best man win

It was once done that way.

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by LenV on Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:19 pm

F.Y.I. I don't know how a discussion of grip screws got started but just so you know. All grip screws of any style are currently allowed in E.I.C matches.

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by Jack H on Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:19 pm

aloreman wrote:However it is my personal opinion that leg matches should be shot with guns issued at the event with factory ammo and let the best man win

Liability is nowadays a concern despite the affidavit

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:42 pm

Colt 711 wrote: wrote:Please explain; exactly what is the intent in allowing the various safeties, hammers, and grip changes such as the beavertail?

Because some people own only one 1911 that has a beavertail, a combat hammer, and an extended thumb safety.  Perfectly legal for NRA bullseye matches, but not legal for CMP.

By allowing gun features that don't have a significant competitive advantage to participate in CMP matches, you may see additional participation in the CMP matches.

Because these features don't offer a competitive advantage, I don't see any reason that it "cheapens" the challenge of shooting distinguished--except the fact that if it does increase participation there is the possibility of more legs being given than there used to be--but they will be earned by those who recieve them...

As far as grip screws are concerned, I swear their used to be a CMP rule that ball guns needed slot style grip screws.

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by Steve B on Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:02 pm

Shooting 45 hardball with a beavertail equipped 1911 is much more comfortable than the old military grip safety.  Also, beavertails allow a higher hold on the gun thereby changing the recoil characteristics, slight as it may be.

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:17 pm

All of my guns except my carry gun have a GI grip safety.  I disagree.  My grip is the same and I don't notice a difference in comfort.

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by Steve B on Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:33 pm

Beavertails were developed for a reason...

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by LenV on Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:50 pm

I agree with Rob that beavertail grips should be allowed. I think that those small changes would get more shooters to the line. I think if something doesn't change and fairly soon we will see a time when a 6 point LEG is all that is available and maybe not even that. The LEG matches here in Oregon went from multiple relays on different days down to 1 relay and held the State and Regional matches in one day instead of 2. That took place in a span of only 3 years.Lack of ammo could have had some effect on participation also.

Anyone interested in the current E.I.C regs here is the address     odcmp.com/Competitions/Rulebook.pdf

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by Colt711 on Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:44 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:
Colt 711 wrote: wrote:Please explain; exactly what is the intent in allowing the various safeties, hammers, and grip changes such as the beavertail?

Because some people own only one 1911 that has a beavertail, a combat hammer, and an extended thumb safety.  Perfectly legal for NRA bullseye matches, but not legal for CMP.

By allowing gun features that don't have a significant competitive advantage to participate in CMP matches, you may see additional participation in the CMP matches.

My recommendation was to allow Beavertail safeties, combat hammers, ambi-safeties, and accessory rails like the new USMC MEU(SOC) pistols have.  I also recommended to allow the Sig Sauer M11A1.
 "Perfectly legal for NRA bullseye matches, but not legal for CMP". Exactly, they are fired with a service pistol and  are NOT NRA bullseye matches.

Although increasing competition is a laudable goal becoming distinguished t has always been difficult and often inconvenient. Obtaining a hardball gun has given others problems. My 1st 26 points were with borrowed guns. The 3rd season I competed in then DCM matches there was a problem with the borrowed pistol. A season past before the default was diagnosed. I wanted the badge and finally was able to obtain a Colt and have the gun built. The point is something worth having can be difficult.

The idea that guns and ammo should be changed for the convenience of  what may be a few seems flawed.

Just the thoughts of one person.

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:02 pm

Ron,
The USMC SOC 1911 has all of those features and is a "Service Pistol" now.  So is the Sig Sauer M-11A1.  Why shouldn't a competitor be able to fire those?  Convenience?  What is convenient about any CMP match.  Shoot a match against other competitors and the winner gets a leg.

Did your borrowed gun have adjustable sights?  That's weird.  The "service pistol" version doesn't.

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:10 pm

Oh, and Ron,
I completely dismiss that how difficult it was for you to obtain the equipment to earn your badge has any bearing on the fact that you still had to shoot the shots against competitors and win the legs.  Sure it's part of your journey, but it shouldn't be REQUIRED as part of every shooters journey to distinguished.

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:14 pm

There were 641 competitors that shot at Camp Perry last year.  Only 476 shot in the CMP match.  I argue that some of the difference is due to illegal features that are now equipped on as issued USMC SOC 1911s.

I just can't understand how a different safety shape can give an unfair competitive advantage over people who have equipment that meets the current rules, or why this change wouldn't be acceptable.

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by Steve B on Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:43 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:Oh, and Ron,
I completely dismiss that how difficult it was for you to obtain the equipment to earn your badge has any bearing on the fact that you still had to shoot the shots against competitors and win the legs.  Sure it's part of your journey, but it shouldn't be REQUIRED as part of every shooters journey to distinguished.

Rob,
Should every shooter be able to determine what their individual journey's requirements are?  Those that have already obtained this status were required to follow the rules, I'd prefer to earn it the same way.

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by Colt711 on Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:18 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:Oh, and Ron,
I completely dismiss that how difficult it was for you to obtain the equipment to earn your badge has any bearing on the fact that you still had to shoot the shots against competitors and win the legs.  Sure it's part of your journey, but it shouldn't be REQUIRED as part of every shooters journey to distinguished.

Rob you are putting words in my mouth. My experience is a recounting of my mistake in not purchasing a ball gun to start with. I DID NOT offer it as a requirement! The point was specified.

Ron H


Last edited by Colt711 on Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:25 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Add last sentence)

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:20 pm

Steve B,

No, shooters shouldn't be able to determine what rules apply to them, but when the rules are arbitrary anyway, what difference does it make if the rules change when all shooters are subject to the same rules?

If a shooter earned their badge when slotted grip screws were the "rules", and any style screws are allowed now, is today's badge somehow easier to obtain?  M9s weren't legal back when Ron earned his badge.  There is nothing wrong with the badges that people earned with the M9.

If you advocate for the spirit of the CMP matches to be pure to its "service pistol" roots then I would argue that only M9s should be allowed.

Since the 1911 had been discontinued as a service pistol, CMP shouldn't have allowed it be used since 1985.

Since every competitor need to shoot against other competitors before they can win a leg, and every competitor needs to comply with the rules that apply on the day of the match, explain to me what it matters what the rules are now versus whatever they might be changed to years from now? 

It's not whether you have torx screws holding your slabs on, or slotted screws.  It's not whether you have a trigger with 3 holes in it or a solid one.  That crap is arbitrary cosmetic bullcrap.  They had NO influence on whether I shoot a 282 and win a leg or a 252 and don't win anything.

Can you explain to me how having an extended thumb safety is going to help a shooter achieve a better score?  Can you explain how changing the rules to allow that shooter a spot on the firing line changes YOUR journey?

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by Jack H on Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:15 am

The journey I had spread over 5 seasons. and many rounds of practice included the blood thirsty hammer and the GI "non-beavertail.  The wounded web of hand is a part of hardball.

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by Ed Hall on Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:49 am

Jack H wrote:The journey I had spread over 5 seasons. and many rounds of practice included the blood thirsty hammer and the GI "non-beavertail.  The wounded web of hand is a part of hardball.
But, only for some.  My start consisted of shooting only non-match, military issued hardball, for all my .45, which entailed at least 180 and sometimes as much as 540 rounds a week, just in competition, since I fired straight hardball for all the leagues and 2700s.  During all that firing, I never experienced hammer bite.

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Re: hardball pistol

Post by DavidR on Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:19 pm

The intent as I read it is to build  more participation, so I look for them to allow more options to the equipment, will this lessen the game yes in many eyes it will,  but not really any more than it already has been, over the years the rules have been relaxed mostly brought on by the military by allowing guns like the Sams , MCP and other custom shop berettas and 1911s  to be considered the "same" as a service pistol. There is little comparison with these and  what the old timers had to use that it will never be a true level of equal accomplishment. Ask any old guy who made it with a real issued gun and issued ammo and he will tell you quick!


Hammer bite is a result of  not knowing how to cure it.
A simple fix, grind the underside of the hammer so that when help back at maximum travel it doesn't contact the beavertail. This is allowed and will pass all inspections.,

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Re: hardball pistol

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