Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

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Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by Vociferous on Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:06 pm

For service pistol , does anyone load a lighter load for 25 yards?  Specifically, for 1911?

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by dronning on Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:26 pm

Yes, I have talked to many that shoot a lighter load for the short line - less recoil and no sight adjustment if done right.  
This is on my to do list.

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by john bickar on Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:04 pm

In my opinion, this is against the spirit of the rules, even though it may not be against the letter.

Man up.

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by xringshooter on Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:09 pm

I use 4.1 grains of Bullseye for the 25 yard line, and 5.3 grains of the same for the 50 yard line. Both loads use 230 grain RN FMJ bullets. No sight adjustments necessary between yard lines.  Both loads function 100% through my Clark accurized M1911A1 with a full strength recoil spring.

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by Bullseye58 on Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:31 pm

Similar to Xringshooter, I have used 5.0 gn BE for the longline and 4.2 gn @ the short line in my hardball ammo development for my HB gun. I have not competed in an EIC Match yet, but I don't feel a world of difference between the two loads. It does help save a few grains a powder here and there during tough times. I always chrono my loads and try to get close to 820-840 fps for my long line loads. I recently switched over to Clays (4.20 grains) for my EIC loads @ the long line and still working on my load development for the short line. Best of luck and be safe!

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by DeweyHales on Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:36 pm

john bickar wrote:In my opinion, this is against the spirit of the rules, even though it may not be against the letter.

Man up.
John,

Belittling another shooter may not be against the letter of the rules, but it is against the spirit. Phil doesn't need to man up.  He's already a man. 

Phil,

The rules state 1911s can use any safe 230 grain ammo. Most people use two different loads. The loads are something like 4.7 and 4.0 grains of Bullseye. M9 shooters tend to use one load because the 9mm shoots to the same spot at 50 and 25 yards.

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by john bickar on Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:53 pm

Shooting "softball" loads for the short line is contrary to the spirit of a leg match.

"Man up" is not meant to be belittling - it's meant to be empowering. I don't care if you're a man, a woman, a 14-year-old girl, or an 80-year-old great-grandfather.

You can shoot on a level playing field with the best in the country in a leg match, using the service sidearm. That's the point.

You can do it, and you don't have to down-load your short line ammo to do so.

Man up.

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by Bullseye58 on Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:22 pm

I am a newbie, but it seems to me that what really separates the participants who win leg matches and earn points are those that have invested countless hours in practicing their hardball shooting (good, meaningful practice). I doubt anyone will earn any leg points in any EIC match because they are using a 230 grain load that may contain a few grains less powder than that shooter's 50 yard line ammunition. Let's face it, the HB load is a stout load either way. I would not think twice if Phil or anyone else shot beside me in an EIC match and placed higher than me. I would assume I have to work harder. I know it takes a great deal of discipline and practice to earn the DPSB. Anything worth while is worth working hard to earn. Semper Fi all....be safe!

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by Dr.Don on Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:37 am

I'm with John on this one.  When these matches originated you had to shoot the ammo issued to you on the line, and it was full power match grade ammo.  The rule changes that allowed handloads with no specification on power level left room for people to soften the loads up.  The short line is all about recovery time and the guy shooting full power ammo is at a disadvantage against softball loads without a doubt.  Lot's of people do it, but it is a shame to twist the spirit of the match in my book.

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by Rob Kovach on Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:43 am

I like pulling my rounds out of the factory box when I shoot hardball.  So fun to keep it old school.  I'm not paying attention to the recoil anyway--I'm working on my Lanny Basham mental program so I'm focusing on fuzzy kittens.

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by john bickar on Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:08 am

Here are some notes from my journal from last year, at the California state match and the Canton Regional.

I shoot hardball maybe two or three times a year. I'm already Distinguished, so I shoot it for fun, with a 1911, with factory hardball. At times, it's a challenge, as my notes attest.


2013-06-02:
Leg Match

91-96-82=269

SF and TF felt good, RF kinda sucked

2013-07-06:
Team HB: 90-95-85=260
RF HB was not so great bit I think I have a better idea of the timing and just need to squeeze on way in

2013-07-07
Leg match: 84-98-94=276

Quite pleased with short line (esp. RF) after team match yesterday

Remembered that there is plenty of time and focused on just being very firm on the trigger and keeping it moving

That short line at the Canton leg match was one of the highlights of my year.

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by Bullseye10X on Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:11 am

john bickar wrote:
That short line at the Canton leg match was one of the highlights of my year.

What does the first set of 3 digit numbers denote in that score list? For example, yours is 134. What does that mean?

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by john bickar on Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:25 am

Bullseye10X wrote:
john bickar wrote:
That short line at the Canton leg match was one of the highlights of my year.

What does the first set of 3 digit numbers denote in that score list? For example, yours is 134. What does that mean?
Age, in dog years.

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by Bullseye10X on Fri Jan 24, 2014 5:44 am

You wouldn't happen to be an avid fly fisherman would you, John?

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by Jack H on Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:12 am

It can be done.
HB 45 RF using 4.8 TG and meeting the 820 fps standard

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by Vociferous on Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:41 am

John, I'm secure in my manhood, as my wife can attest   .  However, I take your meaning.  I probably should shoot 38 special for the centerfire portion of the 2700 and perhaps, only use open sights.  That would be empowering, although, not as much fun, as everyone else is playing by a different set of rules.  I'm sure some of the shooters of yesteryear bemoan how we shoot bullseye today.  CMP could make a minimum velocity rule making it clear that was the spirit of the game.  Otherwise, shooters will always want to push the rules to the limit.  Trigger jobs, match barrels, ect. are not part of "as issued" service pistols either, but best I understand it, are within the rules.

People who are shooting within the limits of the rules, should not be chastised for doing so.  And if my competitors are doing so, so will I.  Thanks for the response, I always respect what a HM says.

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by sixftunda on Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:17 am

john bickar wrote:Shooting "softball" loads for the short line is contrary to the spirit of a leg match.

"Man up" is not meant to be belittling - it's meant to be empowering. I don't care if you're a man, a woman, a 14-year-old girl, or an 80-year-old great-grandfather.

You can shoot on a level playing field with the best in the country in a leg match, using the service sidearm. That's the point.

You can do it, and you don't have to down-load your short line ammo to do so.

Man up.
I do use the same load on the short line as long line.

In my opinion service pistol is no more level a playing field as bullseye.  
If you can buy points through equipment there isn't a level playing field.  

I practiced a lot last year and really wanted it.  I did very very well for a guy who spent less than 800.00 total on his Beretta.  Even if I made zero mistakes on the line, my gun and the load I use is not mechanically capable of shooting a 300 and maybe not even a 290 (checked only from sandbags).  So what does that leave me to do? Buy points.  

Please do not take what I am saying as a complaint or whining. My goal this year is to break 280 NMC with my Beretta and I will do it.  I do believe that equipment will set apart two equally determined and qualified shooters.  I don't think for a second that a day will come when ammo and real service grade pistols will be issued at the line for the NTI.

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by Dave C. on Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:40 am

I used a parts gun (no two parts the same) Built by an unknown Smith and shot only military ball in matches. So did I buy any points? If you use a sub 6 hold you will not need a sight change at the short or long line. If you think that the other guy bought his or her polnts you need to work on your skill sets and self image.

Dave C.

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by sixftunda on Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:51 am

I think I have a pretty good grasp on the reality that my gun is not as mechanically accurate as one built by the AMU or David Sams.  If I were able to buy one of those guns I would call that buying points.  

Would you really choose my gun over one of their's?

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by dan allen on Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:24 am

I have heard the "old way" vs the "new way" many times. Yes I was using a lighter load on the short line when I earned my distinguished badge, number 1465, in 2010. I still had to shoot better than the rest of the non-distiguished shooters on the days I earned points. You want to try something hard? Get your 8 point leg without ever shooting at Camp Perry. I did. While I'm at it what about the guys shooting accurized 9mm's or the match directors recruiting shooters for the ball matches for the sole purpose of being able to award more legs?

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by DeweyHales on Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:12 am

The trigger on the M9 is very different than the 1911, and it is difficult to master. They are great at 50, but they're tougher than people think at 25. 

As far as filling the line goes, I am all for it. I've seen some new shooters get hooked that way. Recently, I saw a new shooter try a leg match and shoot an 85 at 50 yards. 

For comparison, in service rifle, people use long loaded ammunition at 600 that won't fit in a magazine. Plus, many of the shooters on the line are juniors. The scores to leg are almost always master or high master scores though. The AMU helped get the long ammo trend going although they don't use it now. 

The Marine team is now using a different load at 25. In their defense, if you shoot nothing but service pistol for hours a day, don't expect your elbows to hold up. Look at how many top level shooters have had elbow or shoulder repairs in the recent past. 

I once blew out my elbow shooting a can of M9 ammo in a day. It took about two years to fully recover without surgery. I'm very much a rifle shooter that enjoys service pistol. I practice service pistol almost exclusively. Believe it or not, it really wears on you.

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by Dave C. on Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:42 pm

dan allen wrote:While I'm at it what about the guys shooting accurized 9mm's or the match directors recruiting shooters for the ball matches for the sole purpose of being able to award more legs?
Dan;

      With most shooters traveling 200 miles or more to shoot a my range I feel I would be doing a disservice to the shooters that attended the match to shoot ball and or NRA revolver.
So yes I will try to get a new shooter or a shooter that did not plan on shooting ball or revolver.  If the recruited shooter does well when not prepared they may be ready to try for a distinguished badge.  And maybe the next match director will not have to "recruit" shooters to award points.  No mater how you look at it the top % will get the points.

Good health and good shooting.
Dave C.

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by Axehandle on Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:01 pm

Having been award my Distinguished badge in '84  I'd think that mine would have been considered "old school."   I shot an AFPG hardball gun and the ammo that was issued on the line.  The gun would shoot a 300 any day of the week and the ammo was generally Winchester Match hardball.  The Winchester match hardball actually provided more recoil than the issue brown box USGI 45 ACP ammo.  In the late 80s when there was no US manufactured ball ammo in the system we had TZZ and IMI hardball.    FWIW the rules have always limited the external modifications.   Internal mods have been what ever you can do to make the gun shoot and function better.   Reading through all this above what I can see happening at the big matches is a velocity floor established.  As in the big matches for action pistol each time you come to the line a few rounds of ammo will be taken from your match ammo.  These will be chronographed.  The only time you will get any feedback is when your ammo does not make the velocity floor.   You will have the opportunity to have the ammo fired through your gun.  If it still does not make the required velocity you are disqualified.

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

Post by DeweyHales on Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:18 pm

It's the top 10% of shooters that get points.  Each of those shooters are following the rules of using safe ammunition.  I see no need to change the rules. 

Hotter loads generally shoot better at 50.  If a person sets their gun up to not be battered to pieces by these loads, substantially lighter loads won't function.  If a person goes with a lighter spring, the gun will shoot loose with any substantial practice at all.  Without practice, the shooter will never leg out.  With a loose gun, the shooter won't make it either.  It doesn't really seem like something to generate a lot of concern.

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Re: Different loads for 25 and 50 for Hardball?

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