A momentary lapse of thinking...

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A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by Chris_D on 1/27/2014, 6:20 am

On Sunday I was in Kenosha shooting the sectionals which I earned a gold medal in 2013.  Not having the time to practice much in the past 3 months or so, my hopes were to win it again, however, my expectations were to just have fun and maybe place in the top 3.

Shooting on Sunday instantly provides you with a know goal as you can see everyone else' scores up to that point and the bar was set at 856 by my friend Dan.  Last year I shot an 871 but knew this year would be a lower score but 856 is within reach.

The match is run a bit different in that you shoot slow, slow, timed, timed, Rapid, Rapid, then the NMC.  Being as prepared as I could be, the match started...

Slow #1 - 90 - okay, not great but okay
Slow #2 - 90 - okay, this might be a consistent day
Timed #1 - 97 - Again, okay, but I need to make up some points
Timed #2 - 100 - Now things are clicking, a clean target
Rapid #1 - 100 - WoW, first time I cleaned two targets in one match
Rapid #2 - 100 - Holy crap, three cleaned targets in one match -I am certainly doing good, then........

NMC Slow - First shot felt okay, second shot felt like a 10, third shot felt like a 10, fourth shot didn't feel good at all.  I decided I should look through the spotting scope and take a quick break to settle down.  While looking through the spotting scope things looked strange - REALLY STRANGE.  

I had posted a timed/rapid fire target instead of a slow fire target.  

Yup, I screwed up big time and blew the match right then and there.  A big ole zero for the NMC slow fire.  I finished the NMC with a 96 timed and a 95 rapid, obviously low from the loss of mental focus of my big screw up.

Oddly, one of my weird habits is that after posting targets, is that I always check not only my target to make sure it is the right one, but also the targets of the two shooters on each side of me.  Sunday was a day I broke a good habit and paid for it dearly.  Too bad I could break one of my bad habits so easily.

Chris D.

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Re: A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by DeweyHales on 1/27/2014, 7:06 am

I'm surprised no one else caught it. Was it not a 50 yard match?
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Re: A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by Virgil Kane on 1/27/2014, 7:56 am

I shot there Saturday and the Range Officer (Dora) checked every target between stages to make sure the right target was posted and did catch a couple of guys posting the wrong target and corrected it. I don't know if this is the Range Officers job or not but it was nice to have someone helping those that might not have shot this event before.

Dewey. This was a 50' NRA Conventional Pistol Match and I might add that I have been shooting there for the last 6 years and the event at Southport Range has been well run and flawless in a very well maintained atmosphere.

A big thank you to those that run this event and to the club owners that allow us to come and shoot there.


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Re: A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by Rob Kovach on 1/27/2014, 8:15 am

Dewey,
The command from Range Control is "replace your target with a XXXX target"
If you don't follow the command, it's on you.

The black on 50' targets is almost the same size as TF/RF targets.  Unless you have extremely good vision, you cant tell the difference without scoping.
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Re: A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by DavidR on 1/27/2014, 9:17 am

Virgil Kane wrote:I shot there Saturday and the Range Officer (Dora) checked every target between stages to make sure the right target was posted and did catch a couple of guys posting the wrong target and corrected it. I don't know if this is the Range Officers job or not but it was nice to have someone helping those that might not have shot this event before.

Dewey. This was a 50' NRA Conventional Pistol Match and I might add that I have been shooting there for the last 6 years and the event at Southport Range has been well run and flawless in a very well maintained atmosphere.

A big thank you to those that run this event and to the club owners that allow us to come and shoot there.


Virgil
Its the shooters responsibility to place the correct target.
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Re: A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by Virgil Kane on 1/27/2014, 10:11 am

DavidR wrote:
Virgil Kane wrote:I shot there Saturday and the Range Officer (Dora) checked every target between stages to make sure the right target was posted and did catch a couple of guys posting the wrong target and corrected it. I don't know if this is the Range Officers job or not but it was nice to have someone helping those that might not have shot this event before.

Dewey. This was a 50' NRA Conventional Pistol Match and I might add that I have been shooting there for the last 6 years and the event at Southport Range has been well run and flawless in a very well maintained atmosphere.

A big thank you to those that run this event and to the club owners that allow us to come and shoot there.


Virgil
Its the shooters responsibility to place the correct target.

Yes you are correct. Seeing as how this event is run a bit different with the NM Course being shot as the last thing even experianced shooters can have a brain fart if they are use to shooting a 900 in the usual manner of 2 SF targets followed by the NM Course and then TF and RF as Chris D can attest. Usually if the wrong target is posted somebody notices and tells the shooter. It's too bad that Chris or somebody didn't notice his wrong target, it would have been interesting to know what his score would have been but we might as well be discusing how many fairy's can dance on the head of a pin.

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Re: A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by john bickar on 1/27/2014, 9:18 pm

A few thoughts here:

  1. A lesson dearly learned. Good on you for owning it - it is the competitor's responsibility to post the correct target. You will not forget this one, I promise.
  2. That firing order is certainly non-standard; I'm surprised that's allowed for a Sectional.
  3. An argument for always scoping every shot in slow fire. I am a staunch advocate of this practice (doubles excepted).
  4. Hindsight, of course, is 20/20, but I think you could've claimed shooter error once you noticed, and only lost 4 shots instead of 10. Small consolation, I know, but see point #3. At the very least, call it to the attention of match officials, then let them sort it out (while you use the time to bring your heart rate back down from 160).


We've all had screwups, some smaller and some bigger than this. Doesn't make it hurt any less, but it's a waste if you don't learn the lesson from it.
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Re: A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by Chris_D on 1/28/2014, 4:34 am

Hi Guys,

Yes, I own the problem and absolutely would not consider it any fault of the Range Officers or other staff there.  The fellow (sorry I forgot his name) calling the line was a good guy and did a great job. Nick did a great job of organizing the event, and Jon Norteman did a great job as NRA official.  No one did anything wrong except me.  All involved did try to find a way out of this, but to no avail.

While I am very disappointed in myself for wasting 3 clean targets, I am okay with not winning or taking 2nd or 3rd etc.  I was able to also see the humor in the screw up and it will be one of those stories I tell for years, and yes, I will tell the story with a smile on my face.

While I have never wrote down my shot process, I guess getting older and getting more forgetful I should probably do it soon.  It just may save me from forgetting some of the simple things which have a very high cost.

Chris D

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Re: A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by jwax on 1/31/2014, 6:32 am

Question- Would it be legal to score the wrong target by using a clear, mylar overlay of the correct target?

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Re: A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by Virgil Kane on 1/31/2014, 7:41 am

jwax wrote:Question- Would it be legal to score the wrong target by using a clear, mylar overlay of the correct target?

No

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Re: A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by BE Mike on 1/31/2014, 8:12 am

john bickar wrote:A few thoughts here:

  1. A lesson dearly learned. Good on you for owning it - it is the competitor's responsibility to post the correct target. You will not forget this one, I promise.
  2. That firing order is certainly non-standard; I'm surprised that's allowed for a Sectional.
  3. An argument for always scoping every shot in slow fire. I am a staunch advocate of this practice (doubles excepted).
  4. Hindsight, of course, is 20/20, but I think you could've claimed shooter error once you noticed, and only lost 4 shots instead of 10. Small consolation, I know, but see point #3. At the very least, call it to the attention of match officials, then let them sort it out (while you use the time to bring your heart rate back down from 160).


We've all had screwups, some smaller and some bigger than this. Doesn't make it hurt any less, but it's a waste if you don't learn the lesson from it.
I've never seen a Conventional Pistol Sectional fired in any other order than how the OP shot the match, i.e. 20 SF, 20 TF, 20 RF, followed by the NMC. I always thought that it was screwy, but that's how the programs always had the course of fire listed.
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Re: A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by Ed Hall on 1/31/2014, 10:43 am

john bickar wrote:A few thoughts here:

  1. A lesson dearly learned. Good on you for owning it - it is the competitor's responsibility to post the correct target. You will not forget this one, I promise.
  2. That firing order is certainly non-standard; I'm surprised that's allowed for a Sectional.
  3. An argument for always scoping every shot in slow fire. I am a staunch advocate of this practice (doubles excepted).
  4. Hindsight, of course, is 20/20, but I think you could've claimed shooter error once you noticed, and only lost 4 shots instead of 10. Small consolation, I know, but see point #3. At the very least, call it to the attention of match officials, then let them sort it out (while you use the time to bring your heart rate back down from 160).


We've all had screwups, some smaller and some bigger than this. Doesn't make it hurt any less, but it's a waste if you don't learn the lesson from it.
Item 2:

That firing order is NOT non-standard - it is the order used for INDOOR 50 ft (and 20 yard) Conventional Pistol and is the official order per the NRA's Sectional Program.  What bothers me is that there are outdoor shooters who claim they can't handle the alternate format and change the official order for their local venue.  I firmly believe that when this is done, that local match is invalid against the National standings.

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Re: A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by BE Mike on 1/31/2014, 11:50 am

Ed Hall wrote:
john bickar wrote:A few thoughts here:

  1. A lesson dearly learned. Good on you for owning it - it is the competitor's responsibility to post the correct target. You will not forget this one, I promise.
  2. That firing order is certainly non-standard; I'm surprised that's allowed for a Sectional.
  3. An argument for always scoping every shot in slow fire. I am a staunch advocate of this practice (doubles excepted).
  4. Hindsight, of course, is 20/20, but I think you could've claimed shooter error once you noticed, and only lost 4 shots instead of 10. Small consolation, I know, but see point #3. At the very least, call it to the attention of match officials, then let them sort it out (while you use the time to bring your heart rate back down from 160).


We've all had screwups, some smaller and some bigger than this. Doesn't make it hurt any less, but it's a waste if you don't learn the lesson from it.
Item 2:

That firing order is NOT non-standard - it is the order used for INDOOR 50 ft (and 20 yard) Conventional Pistol and is the official order per the NRA's Sectional Program.  What bothers me is that there are outdoor shooters who claim they can't handle the alternate format and change the official order for their local venue.  I firmly believe that when this is done, that local match is invalid against the National standings.
I agree Ed, that to have a level playing field, everyone shooting a sectional should have to compete under the same rules. Like I said, I always thought it was screwy to do this, but rules are rules!
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Re: A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by john bickar on 1/31/2014, 10:44 pm

Fascinating. You know, after I posted that, I went and looked at the NRA rules, and couldn't find anything that specified the order of a 900. And, naturally, I couldn't find the Sectional program anywhere.

Anyone have a link?
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Re: A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by CR10X on 2/1/2014, 8:12 am

This is one of the reasons that the NRA is to review the match program prior to approval.   

The match program determines the order of single stage or multiple stage courses of fire for each aggerate for that tournament.   The rule book determines the components of a single stage couse, multiple starge course and aggegrate in section 17 for National Records; however no order is specified.  (Although some may infer and use that order in the match program, hence the shooting of the National Match course as the last Match in an aggegrate from the listing in the rule book.)   

Section 7 determines the required "stages" for for courses of fire with multiple stages that are generally recognized and describes "single stage course".  

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Re: A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by Ed Hall on 2/1/2014, 9:13 pm

john bickar wrote:Fascinating. You know, after I posted that, I went and looked at the NRA rules, and couldn't find anything that specified the order of a 900. And, naturally, I couldn't find the Sectional program anywhere.

Anyone have a link?
I don't have access to the official one the NRA sends out to their venues, but I can supply a couple links to programs for a couple of those venues:

2014 Conventional Indoor Pistol Sectional at Ten-X Shooting Club


2014 Conventional Indoor Pistol Sectional at Troy Pistol League

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Re: A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by john bickar on 2/4/2014, 9:15 pm

Weird. The only thing I can find in the NRA Rules is 17.5, which puts the matches in that order too (SF, TF, RF, NMC/NGC) for both Outdoor and Indoor, but when was the last time you shot a 900 that way?

I shot the Sectional at Ten-X a number of years ago (read: approaching 20 years ago), and can't remember the order of firing.

It's kind of funny/baffling that the rules don't specify a firing order, yet "everyone does it this way".
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Re: A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by Ed Hall on 2/5/2014, 11:37 am

john bickar wrote:Weird. The only thing I can find in the NRA Rules is 17.5, which puts the matches in that order too (SF, TF, RF, NMC/NGC) for both Outdoor and Indoor, but when was the last time you shot a 900 that way?
...
The records are all presented that way, as well.

Long ago, in a place a ways away...

When I first started out, someone told me (hearsay) that the standard format used to be as described above, but they started firing the current outdoor format so they could finish up 50 yards and then move.  It makes a lot more sense the way the outdoor format is fired, both for moving, which enables you to use a two-range system, and for firing, which allows a smoother transition through the course.  There is a difference firing three Slows versus, firing a Slow right after some Rapid strings.

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Re: A momentary lapse of thinking...

Post by CR10X on 2/5/2014, 5:59 pm

Maybe everyone does it the way the match program is written, which appears to the the intent of the rules.  Or at least I can't find any language other than 17.5 which lists the courses of fire for National Records, but does not specifically say "shoot in this order.  It appears to be simply a list of single or multiple stage courses of fire to be used for the records.  Even the match program directions in section 21 only says to list the courses of fire but no particular order.  Someone probably started that match that way and just never changed the program.  

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