Rule Changes

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Rule Changes

Post by sixftunda on 2/7/2014, 9:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

This was posted on the mailing list earlier today so I thought I would share it here.

http://competitions.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/rules/rul_conv_pistol_14.pdf

I know Dennis reads the posts here so here are my two questions regarding the Production Division:
1.  d) The front sight must be non-adjustable. So a front sight that can be drifted to the right or left is not permitted even if it came from the manufacturer that way?

2. g) Single Action Semi-Auto Pistols are prohibited.  Is this SA only pistols like a 1911 or does it include DA/SA pistols like a Beretta 92FS?
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Re: Rule Changes

Post by BE Mike on 2/9/2014, 9:04 am

I find that most folks who are fairly serious about competitive shooting, want to have the match sanctioned and have their scores recorded by a national governing body. There are far more who shoot, who do it for recreation, and don't really care if the club keeps tabs of scores and classifications by a national sanctioning body. It does appear to me that there are fewer and fewer of the first type and more recreational shooters. If I'm not mistaken, the NRA loses money in the competitive shooting area. Maybe they are trying to recoup a little money by generating more interest by recreational shooters. When the military quit giving big support to conventional pistol shooting in the 70's, the decline began. I don't know what, if anything can reverse the trend. This is a desperate attempt to stem the bleeding. Only a transfusion of new shooters can restore health to the sport.
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Re: Rule Changes

Post by Corregidor on 2/9/2014, 10:18 am

Most matches are “NRA Approved” and run at the Club level with volunteers like myself acting as Match Director. If you want to add a little something to the prestige of your event… perhaps you’ll throw in a CMP “Excellence in Competition” competition.
 
In my opinion the CMP and NRA are miles apart on their respective application and sanctioning procedure, as well as their resultant compiling and reporting process. The CMP couldn’t possibly make it any easier for Match Directors — even though the EIC Match rules and regulations are incredibly strict. The NRA is considerably more complicated and cumbersome, at least that is my experience and I’ll bet every other Match Director who has run both types of matches will agree.
 
Maybe five years ago (can’t remember exactly) the CMP started issuing “Handicap Results” for their EIC Matches. While totally meaningless regarding the purpose of the Match (issuing points), they are a nod  to the basic club level shooter and his/her contribution to the event. The CMP’s Handicap Results are a very nice way for a club to (unofficially and informally) acknowledge a competitor’s achievement even if that level of achievement doesn’t warrant the issuance of points. It facilitates pride (really, “bragging rights”) for the average shooter. Also, the CMP started compiling Beretta vs 1911 stats for their events at Camp Perry, another meaningless statistic that actually makes results more “inclusive” and fun.
 
 Why the NRA wants to muck up the official classification process that has withstood the test of time for so long is beyond me. Not only does the CMP  in my opinion handle match application and reporting process better, their informal “Handicap Results” and Beretta vs. 1911 tabulations are a really nice way to informally categorize results without changing the rules or purpose of the event. (And not unnecessarily complicate the Match Director’s duties—most of which aren’t seen or even contemplated by the competitors.)
 
I wish two things: 1) That the NRA would consult more closely with Match Directors (like myself) who organize and promote “run of the mill” Approved events that form the bulk of Conventional Pistol Competitions before they make these big changes; or 2) If the NRA isn’t going to seek input from the hoi polloi Match Directors like myself before making wholesale changes, they just copy what the CMP does.
 
The fact that the NRA is open to suggestions thru this forum or the Competitors Meeting, etc. doesn’t cut it in my opinion. They have all our contact information, they should be pro-active in their contact with us. We’re volunteers, they’re not. 
 
Instead, we’re hanging on out here reacting to what they do. Eventually, when NRA Approved Match administration becomes something akin to doing the long form 1040, a Match Director or two might say “forget it”. Or, when compiling and issuing results becomes so complicated that mistakes are common, competitors might say “forget it”.
 
What’s the end result then? Informal “barn yard” matches, perhaps in a local gravel pit, where everybody has … FUN … exactly the way the whole thing started originally! In my opinion if the NRA doesn’t “cool it” with all the bureaucracy and complications they are going to promulgate Conventional Pistol right into oblivion. If people like me decide “to hell with it” because of all this baloney … turn out the lights it’s over. There won’t be any more run-of the-mill Approved Matches.

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Re: Rule Changes

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on 2/9/2014, 10:28 am

DON'T PANIC
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Re: Rule Changes

Post by Toz35m on 2/9/2014, 4:29 pm

I like the idea of an "iron" sight division.  I think it would encourage more people to stick with them longer which will help them improve on the basics more.  I think people too often start shooting a dot because others are doing it.
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NRA Action Pistol

Post by 9146gt on 2/9/2014, 5:11 pm

CR10X wrote:Not to be a pain here, but I hope we get a little more informaiton and background on this. The SR1 cards have not been modified for different divisions on the NRA website.  I, as a match director, would really hate having to be the one to decide if that barrel change moved your springfield XDM from Production to Metallic (note the questions already posted).  My current, and unsupported, scoring program does not support different classes at this time, which means I have to run it 3 times if needed and figure out how to make the awards if I decide to incorporate the divisions.  "...these Divisions can be used in any tournament for .22 caliber, Center Fire or .45 Caliber firearms."  It did not say "will" and I understand that. 

Of course, this is in addition to having to monitor if the competitor is shooting with one hand or two if the match is per the other new rules.  So do we now have 1 and 2 hand, Open, Metallic and Production?  (If it is an Open division only match, do the scores for shooters with Metallic or Production go into Open for them, or do they not get reported? If not reported, does the NRA get the match fee?)  

Can we think of any more ways to "give somebody the opportunity to win" or should we just quit keeping score and declare everybody a winner. 

Look, I'm not against getting more shooters, but the guys that run the matches already put in a full day for a 2700 plus doing all the stats, money, awards, NRA submissions and answering questions.  Adding more things for them to do may not be in the best interest of getting more matches. 

The game was set up so you could come and shoot with whatever you wanted, per the positions and rules anyway.  The guys that win with Open will generally win with Production and Metallic. Creating Divisions may just promote somthing else.  Why should some old guy have to shoot Open and not win with a score that would have won Production just because he can't see open sights anymore? Is he going to keep shooting Open and losing with a 295-15X or just get pissed about a 235-2x winning Production and go his own way? Remember Bianchi Cup (Action Pistol) went this route to "encourage more participation".  As a matter of fact these are almost a direct copy for the Action Pistol rules.   How many Action pistol matches are in your area?

I'm just saying two things.  First, Don't ride the match directors too much without their specific input. Second, don't be surprised if the result is not what you expect.

Cecil "Dazed and Confused"
Bedford Rifle and Revolver club Bedford VA. has monthly NRA Action Pistol matches and hosts a Regional match each year.

Come shoot one ,not very far for you.

Tom

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Re: Rule Changes

Post by HenryA on 2/9/2014, 5:38 pm

Poor conception and poorly written rules. I hope they go up from here.
An introductory class that allows anyone with any safe handgun to participate for one year would be so easy to run and so easy to participate in.

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Re: Rule Changes

Post by Jack H on 2/9/2014, 5:49 pm

They could have simply stated encouragement for match directors to run "shoot what ya got" along side the regulars using the CMP M9 format.  State some guidelines and let the MD handle the rest.
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Re: Rule Changes

Post by CR10X on 2/9/2014, 5:56 pm

Tom:  

I appreciate the invite and I will be there (and Southport, NC if they are still having matches then) when I retire (if my moneyh and eyes hold out).  Right now the time and schedule for my bullseye matches here (the ones and I run and the ones I can shoot) overlap both AP matches.  However, I do have a Springfield XDM 5.25 and currently tuning 9mm loads for future AP matches in Production.  I've got the parts from a direct drive garage door opener and have a working design and most of the parts for a mover for my range for training. Already got a plate rack and tend to work out on that when I really need to relax.  It's the closest thing I have to Richard Davis' old bowling pin matches.  I was one number away from the BMW that was given away one year.  Now that was some fun shooting. Don't even know where to find a pin match anymore.  Been shooting bullseye only for the past 12 - 13 years. 

Again, thanks for the invite.  I will get there sometime.

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Re: Rule Changes

Post by clark2245 on 2/9/2014, 7:17 pm

I agree with Cecil on this.   From the match directors standpoint I don't really know how to deal with this yet, and am not sure there is a good way at least until and unless someone develops a scoring program that can handle all the possibilities that come up.   First you have the three divisions that would need to be scored and reported separately.   Then what about those who decide to shoot 22 only though all three aggregates.  They have to somehow be scored in with the others for 22 phase and separately for the other two aggregates.    That makes it 6 "divisions" so far plus the need to score with everyone else for 22 and separately for CF and 45.  Then what if someone wants to shoot with two hands (does rule 24 still exist?).   Does that make it 12 possible combinations that need to be kept track of and reported separately???   How do I as a match director handle this??  It isn't like I don't already spend several hours each match getting things ready and then finishing up and entering and reporting the scores.

After a couple of emails with Cecil the only thing that makes sense so far is to just put everyone in one score program for awards and try to make notes on the SR-1 report it generates for the NRA as to what "division" people were in and whatever other special categories (22 only and two hands) might apply.   Fun.

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Re: Rule Changes

Post by Rob Kovach on 2/9/2014, 9:20 pm

I totally agree with the earlier post that more matches=more shooters.  Our sport is the best-kept secret around.  With more matches at more clubs there are more chances for new shooters to find out about them.

When you see how impractical the "probationary" rules were last season, then this year's impractical rule changes--all adding additional burdens and expectations from match directors, it's really hard to defend the NRA.

My crystal ball says the NRA response will be: "We are doing what we think is best to increase participation.  This is all up to the match directors.  Match directors have all the choices.  We have limited resources to provide any additional support or software to match directors, and the NRA bureaucracy only allows one inept Information systems vendor to create the unusable tech systems that we struggle to use now--we couldn't possible get them to do anything for the competition department...and blah blah blah..."

Lots of smart ideas for attracting competitors have been posted here--including making the match finding search engine easy to find--which still hasn't happened.  Instead we get another impractical chapter from the Action Pistol rulebook added to our system with no clarity on how we are supposed to implement it?  GRRRR.
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Rule Changes

Post by bullseyepistol on 2/9/2014, 9:47 pm

Folks, I have to agree that this is a really silly idea.  The thought that Conventional Pistol will suddenly burst into popularity because they add a token division for guys with "bedside protection" pistols is absurd.

It would be the equivalent for the ISSF to add a special class in Free Pistol for those who only own a Ruger Mk-III - heck, everyone should win something, right?  How about, 2-handed air pistol?  Please.

The crises in our sport right now are "ranges" and "ammunition."    Just sayin' ...
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Re: Rule Changes

Post by s1120 on 2/10/2014, 5:14 am

bullseyepistol wrote:Folks, I have to agree that this is a really silly idea.  The thought that Conventional Pistol will suddenly burst into popularity because they add a token division for guys with "bedside protection" pistols is absurd.

It would be the equivalent for the ISSF to add a special class in Free Pistol for those who only own a Ruger Mk-III - heck, everyone should win something, right?  How about, 2-handed air pistol?  Please.

The crises in our sport right now are "ranges" and "ammunition."    Just sayin' ...
You know... that's the point. Bullseye is already open to those guns anyways. Why do we need this? Ya, you might not win a trophy with your new hipoint .45... but shoot it anyway... come build up your skill. Lets see if you can improve and jump to the next classification. Ive always known it as a circuit where the goal was to improve yourself. See how far you can advance. As for the production classes being entry level.... just have to look to the racing world to see that is VARY false. The production cars in NHRA cost WAY more then a lot of the higher classes. Also the skill level in shooting, and also building needs to be best of the best. Its just a bad idea IMHO. And as ive said... why ditch one hand??? Frankly put a new guy on the range for two days working on one hand shooting and they are probably as good, or close to what they were two handed. Its part of the game, and its something you need to do to play it.    I just hope the sport doesn't fold before I get to join my first match.  Crying or Very sad

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Re: Rule Changes

Post by DeweyHales on 2/10/2014, 4:01 pm

I would think that a program to compile results by division could be done in excel.  If I can get some time, I'll take a crack at it. 

I wonder if it will ever be needed.  I hope so if it means new shooters.
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Re: Rule Changes

Post by Vociferous on 2/10/2014, 4:28 pm

Dewey, you might need an Access database.
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Re: Rule Changes

Post by Guest on 2/10/2014, 6:20 pm

bullseyepistol wrote:Folks, I have to agree that this is a really silly idea.  The thought that Conventional Pistol will suddenly burst into popularity because they add a token division for guys with "bedside protection" pistols is absurd.

It would be the equivalent for the ISSF to add a special class in Free Pistol for those who only own a Ruger Mk-III - heck, everyone should win something, right?  How about, 2-handed air pistol?  Please.

The crises in our sport right now are "ranges" and "ammunition."    Just sayin' ...


Wait.....I can use my Ruger Mk-III in Free Pistol?   affraid

I assume I would "earn" a participation ribbon and a trophy for dead last so my feelings would not be hurt...:-)

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Re: Rule Changes

Post by TexasShooter on 2/11/2014, 7:34 am

Some thoughts from a "newbie"...and maybe a little bit of venting.

While trying to start a bullseye match at our local club my first thought was to ask NRA for advice. So I emailed NRA, and their response was to read the rule book. Period. End of advice.

So I read the rule book, several times. Then I found a few long time bullseye shooters and asked them to explain the dadgum book to me. They were very helpful in explaining the nuts and bolts of match day but not so much when it came to understanding the book. As near as I can tell, the book shows:

2 Types of NRA tournaments
12 Categories of sanctioned tournaments
13 Match types
15 Individual competitor categories
12 Team categories
Unlimited combinations of courses of fire

All that before we even look at the equipment! I can understand why you don't see many younger folks at bullseye matches - it takes 20 years to figure out the first 10 pages of the rule book. Maybe someone needs to write a "Bullseye for Dummies" book, they've got "Dummies" books for everything else in the world.

So we're having matches - we're just getting started but we already have about 20 interested shooters and a great facility. A bunch of us get together and shoot, following the rules as best as we can figure out, and we're having a ball. Yes, we would like to turn in scores to NRA and see how we match up to other folks in the sport, and have sanctioned matches, and be a "real" bullseye club...but the process is so convoluted we haven't decided if it's worth it.

In my short time of involvement in this sport I've seen lots of complaints about how interest is declining, and how far one has to travel to find a match, and woe is me. And then I go to our range and see dozens of people poking holes in paper using handguns - seems like shooters still like to shoot, and a good portion like to shoot at targets. Seem logical that any rebuilding of this sport is going to have to come from those folks, not from NRA.

As I said, I'm very much a newbie, trying to learn, so I won't be offended if you tell me I'm full of beans...

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Re: Rule Changes

Post by s1120 on 2/11/2014, 7:41 am

Not full of beans at all texas. Ive seen the same thing as a newbee, and luckly it has led me here, and ive gotten a lot of info. I know NRA says they are under maned... but if they want to grow the sport, they need SOMEONE to offer help.

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Re: Rule Changes

Post by Ed Hall on 2/11/2014, 9:56 am

DeweyHales wrote:I would think that a program to compile results by division could be done in excel.  If I can get some time, I'll take a crack at it. 

I wonder if it will ever be needed.  I hope so if it means new shooters.
If you are an Excel "guru," you might want to take a look at my "ancient" bullseye.xls workbook and see if it could be a basis.  It even already has extra "special" awards built into it along with all the Senoir/Junior/USA/USAF/etc. capability (no Grand Senior).  There are three unnamed awards that could possibly already be used.  My trouble is that I have left the Windows world almost entirely behind, and therefore,  have no updated Excel.  My alternate, LibreOffice, does not run the VB macros, so I haven't made much change to my workbook in quite some time.  If interested in taking a look, you can find the ancient version at:

Excel 5.0 Based Bullseye Competition Scoring Program

Of note, I may have a copy of my workbook that someone else has already brought into the new era, but I'll have to see if I can locate it and get it checked out, so I can add that to the page shown above.  I'll note it here in this thread if I find and add the newer copy.

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Re: Rule Changes

Post by Ed Hall on 2/11/2014, 10:01 am

ChipEck wrote:Wait.....I can use my Ruger Mk-III in Free Pistol?   affraid

I assume I would "earn" a participation ribbon and a trophy for dead last so my feelings would not be hurt...:-)
I've used a Ruger Mark II for Free Pistol with good results many years ago.  After that I won some tryouts and made it to the State Games with my Hammerli 208s, before I bought a purpose-built Free Pistol.

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Re: Rule Changes

Post by s1120 on 2/11/2014, 10:14 am

I think a lot of this changing of the rules stems from what kind of person you are, and how you see the sport. I think a lot of us are out here not so much to "win" but to better ourselves, and continue to improve. All these new rules seem to be geared toward the "I just want to win" crowd. And there is nothing wrong with that... but from the people I have known in the sport, most of us look to keep improving our scores, jumping up to the next class, having fun. "winning" is secondary. I still think they are misguided, and there is so much foundation work that is needed before we add to the building...

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Re: Rule Changes

Post by DavidR on 2/11/2014, 11:59 am

None of this even matters to 90% of the venues that hold bullseye matches, use of these new rules is at the discretion of the match director so most venues im sure will choose to ignore them. In some places that don't have many shooters then they may use the new rules to boost participation. So it may help those clubs build up their programs.
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Re: Rule Changes

Post by CR10X on 2/11/2014, 5:04 pm

Dewey, etc.   

Everyone thanks for the comments about writing a match program, but please remember a match program goes beyond just scores, classes and divisions.  We have awards groups, based on x awards per number of competitors in each class, tie breaking, export files for the match report and mailing list (with addresses, email, etc), SR1 report, Club expenses and cash report, awards calculation for each competitor based on wins by match, aggegrate, and total, moving less than x classes into next higher for awards, etc. etc.  

Anyway, the attached excel sheet by John Dryer that did everything great, with only a couple of minor issues.  The improved version was actually less useful for most 2700 matches at the club level.  This is/was a great program.  I would be most appreciative of anyone can work on this version to update this for the new divisions (working with John's permission of course).  

At the very least, the eager programmers out there will get some idea of the utilities needed by a 2700 Bullseye match scoring program to be really useful should you decide to try your hand a creating something.  As I said, this is/was an excellent program for the 2700 match director (I can't begin to thank John enough for this.) 

Cecil


Last edited by CR10X on 2/11/2014, 5:36 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Making sure everyone knows this is John's program.)

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Re: Rule Changes

Post by Ed Hall on 2/12/2014, 11:36 am

CR10X wrote:Dewey, etc.   

Everyone thanks for the comments about writing a match program, but please remember a match program goes beyond just scores, classes and divisions.  We have awards groups, based on x awards per number of competitors in each class, tie breaking, export files for the match report and mailing list (with addresses, email, etc), SR1 report, Club expenses and cash report, awards calculation for each competitor based on wins by match, aggegrate, and total, moving less than x classes into next higher for awards, etc. etc.  
...
Cecil
My ancient Bullseye.xls workbook did/does almost all of that, although some formatting was manually chosen on the "options" page.  It also makes SR1s from the shooters' data, writes an NRA report and makes label pages for any match entrants without having to export anything.  It also writes out an award page for trophy/plaques and there is limited capability for Team Match scoring.  It has monetary award calculation, as well.  If anyone remembers the All States National Pistol Championship that used to be held in Maryland, just prior to Canton, many years ago, that's the program that took care of all of that match scoring/award presentation.  (Actually, it took care of all the details, whether the match is remembered, or not.{smile})

I know a few venues that still use my workbook and am checking into obtaining an updated copy from one of them to add to the above mentioned page.

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Re: Rule Changes

Post by GrumpyOldMan on 2/12/2014, 11:00 pm

Dave C. wrote:The end of Conventional Pistol.
Time of death February 2014.

So long and thanks for all the fish.

Dave C.
About time you noticed.

It started when scopes and red dots were allowed.

But then again there are a lot of other games and sports around that have changed up their rules over the years. Those pigeons used to be real live targets more unpredicable than any off-balance clay "birds".

The leadership is not content with letting the top shooters remain big fish in an ever-shrinking pond. 

It's only the end of the world as *you know it."  Life will go on, Bullseye will just be different.

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Re: Rule Changes

Post by Schaumannk on 2/14/2014, 9:25 pm

My understanding, possibly incorrect, is that red dots and scopes were never "disallowed" in Conventional Pistol.   ISSF is the discipline with all the restrictive rules.

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Re: Rule Changes

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