Lots of room to improve over today's match

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Lots of room to improve over today's match

Post by Joe L on 2/22/2014, 1:25 pm

Today we had our second monthly club match, this time 600 rimfire and 600 centerfire. 

I had two jams in the Ruger 22/45 and that cost me 30 points.  Not sure yet whether it is the ammo or the gun yet.  Haven't had any problems with either until today.  Failure to feed, almost like the slide didn't go far enough back to catch the next round.  Might have been light loads in a couple of the Norma rounds. 

With the centerfire, I shot the P-09 and it performed perfectly.  Problem I had there was a change in POI since last practice.  Earlier this week, I had settled in on a 10 ring six o'clock hold.  Started there and shot high.  Went to a 5 o'clock black hold and was OK.  I've had this change before with the open fixed sights.  I think it is inconsistency in my grip.  I have had the same thing happen with the 22/45--sight the gun in one day and have to change it 3 clicks up and 3 clicks right the next day, then back again on the following range trips.  The guns aren't changing.  It is either my grip or my eyesight, I think. 

I'm learning is all I can say. 

Our match director did an outstanding job today showing infinite patience with the frustrated shooters!  He ran a smooth, well paced, safe match.  I wish my shooting was up to his standards.  Got to be better next month!

It is STILL fun, just not easy. 

Joe

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Re: Lots of room to improve over today's match

Post by Joe L on 2/22/2014, 4:00 pm

Here is a video showing the grip change I will try on Sunday.  Comments welcome.


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Re: Lots of room to improve over today's match

Post by Rob Kovach on 2/22/2014, 4:34 pm

Dear Joe,
I think that your grip should be based on trigger finger placement.  Try moving your finger deeper into the trigger well so your are pressing with the hard flesh in the crack of your first finger joint.
Move the grip to accommodate the trigger finger placement. 
I believe that your "new" grip isn't as good as your old one.  Trigger finger placement is an important part of keeping your point of impact consistent.
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Re: Lots of room to improve over today's match

Post by Rob Kovach on 2/22/2014, 4:37 pm

The wrist is strongest when it is held in the same angle as a punch.  By canting it back farther, and bending it back, you aren't helping things any.
Make a fist and a punching motion.  It's the exact same thing every time.  Put the gun into the fist so the sights are aligned and you are ready for sustained fire.
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Re: Lots of room to improve over today's match

Post by Joe L on 2/22/2014, 5:01 pm

Rob, thanks.  Perhaps I'm going through a fix my horn, my brakes don't work approach.  The trigger reach is short on this pistol and I have always shot it with a middle of the first pad anyway instead of at the first crease.  Perhaps that is contributing to the inconsistencyfrom day to day. 

I will try the crease in the first joint trigger finger placement.   Maybe long enough this time to actually see if that fixes my problem.

Thanks again.

Joe

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Re: Lots of room to improve over today's match

Post by james r chapman on 2/22/2014, 7:54 pm

brian zins, says...
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Re: Lots of room to improve over today's match

Post by Rob Kovach on 2/22/2014, 8:49 pm

brian zins says....pretty much what I said.  He also says that every hand is different for every gun.  With the new shooters that I've helped, the key to the proper grip is holding the gun in the non shooting hand, start gripping the gun by first placing the trigger finger in the correct spot, THEN wrap your thumb and other fingers onto the gun with the wrist as close to a punch as you can.
DON'T start the grip in the web of your thumb like you are shaking someone's hand--there is nothing that the web of your hand does for a good shot, but trigger finger placement IS important.
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Re: Lots of room to improve over today's match

Post by Rob Kovach on 2/22/2014, 8:54 pm

Oh, and I grip the gun during prep time and place my finger with the trigger pressed....be very certain you have the pistol unloaded.

The reason I do this is I want my good finger placement to be there when the shot breaks, not during take-up.
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Re: Lots of room to improve over today's match

Post by james r chapman on 2/23/2014, 9:34 am

Ok, Rob, and   Brian, says...  
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Re: Lots of room to improve over today's match

Post by Joe L on 2/23/2014, 10:55 am

Well, I went to the range this morning to try both my proposed grip and Rob's recommendation.  Rob's worked great on both the 9mm and the 22/45.  Now I need to practice a bunch with both guns with the bullseye specific trigger finger placement.  Here are the results from this morning, 9mm first, then the 22/45. 


I also confirmed that the Ultradot dot must be centered in the tube to avoid any parallax error, even at 25 yards.  All these were shot from 25 yards at about a timed fire pace.  I marked the target scores at the range, and there are a couple of corrections.  Target 4 shows 98-4x but is really a 94-3x, there is a 6 ring hole upper right.  There are only 8 holes in target 6 and 16 is a 96-2x.  There are only 9 holes in the 22/45 target 4 due to a bad round so that score is wrong.  May be other errors--got in too big of a hurry.  Point is this--I will be shooting with the crease of the finger, not the middle of the first pad for the next match. 

Thanks, Rob.

This is fun.

Joe

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Re: Lots of room to improve over today's match

Post by pergoman on 2/23/2014, 8:00 pm

I corrected my trigger/finger interface for our weekly Wednesday match. I have been struggling some this season so I figured it was time for a return to that position with the trigger in the first joint crease. My first 3 shots on slow were 7's and it sure felt awkward. The next 6 hit the 10 ring and the last one was a 9 for a 90. It was starting to feel like it should. I shot a 98 on my next slow fire with 2 inside the 9 ring. I ended up with a 569 for the night and you better believe I will be working on that trigger in the joint a bit more as I get used to it.

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Re: Lots of room to improve over today's match

Post by Rob Kovach on 2/23/2014, 9:13 pm

I ended up bumping into some other BE team members at the range today, and trigger finger placement and the grip position that goes with it was a topic for them also--all with happy results.

Joe, I'm glad you are having fun!

I really am too.
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Re: Lots of room to improve over today's match

Post by Jack H on 2/24/2014, 1:58 am

I hate to be the contrarian but I think trigger finger placement once LOP is set is secondary to having the grip be the most solid interface between the pistol and the hand and in a position that gives best natural alignment with the eye.  The AMU manual describes a way to set the grip.  I once emailed BZ asking if he thought that also described his intended grip.  BZ replied that it was pretty much it.  One must consider all hands are not alike, nor are all grips.  The AMU and the BZ grip concern the standard 1911.  (Note that Joe L's pistol is not a 1911).  When I press my beavertail down between my thumb and trigger finger and then wiggle the MSH hard into the lower part of my palm, I can almost achieve the grip usually pictured as the Zins grip.  But not quite.  However I can feel a solid grip develop if I wiggle the gun into my hand looking for the intended result of being solid
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Re: Lots of room to improve over today's match

Post by Joe L on 2/24/2014, 6:00 am

Jack H--I don't think you are being contrarian at all.  What I've learned from this is that both trigger finger placement and grip must be consistent and one must find what works best.  My mistake, at least I think, was starting out thinking  that a good grip and finger placement was the two handed game gun position with the weak hand removed.  That may not be the way to go for me for bullsyeye and what I should do is go back to the AMU manual and start over, with the crease finger placement.  I can do that.  Thanks everyone for the help.

Joe

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Re: Lots of room to improve over today's match

Post by BE Mike on 2/24/2014, 7:48 am

It took me a long time to realize that "the school solution" didn't work for everyone. If I would have realized that sooner, my scores would have climbed sooner.
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Re: Lots of room to improve over today's match

Post by Jack H on 2/24/2014, 10:19 am

Joe L wrote:Jack H--I don't think you are being contrarian at all.  What I've learned from this is that both trigger finger placement and grip must be consistent and one must find what works best.  My mistake, at least I think, was starting out thinking  that a good grip and finger placement was the two handed game gun position with the weak hand removed.  That may not be the way to go for me for bullsyeye and what I should do is go back to the AMU manual and start over, with the crease finger placement.  I can do that.  Thanks everyone for the help.

Joe
 Joe - Get that solid grip first.  Finger placement is a function of LOP and finger length.  That varies so much all people can't follow the "book" without compromising something else. 

  I will replay an exchange between BZ and me from a few years ago:

The great posts recently that dived into the mind set for shooting leave me to think that there is no one correct technique to shoot,
either physical or mental technique. You listen to many dialogues on how to, and make your own combined versions that work for you.
One caveat I can see is thinking too much, trying to tell the subconscious what to "do" rather than what you "want".
After a certain skill level, I believe the shooting must become more of a flow of moves rather than steps at a time. Jack H



Jack, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT - BRIAN
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Re: Lots of room to improve over today's match

Post by Rob Kovach on 2/24/2014, 5:15 pm

Joe,

If you come to Camp Perry this year and shoot in the AMU-SAFS match, you get a FREE AMU pistol manual.

Plus we will get to hang out around the huts after all the shooting is done.

.....I gotta do a better job setting something up so all of us can meet this year....
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Re: Lots of room to improve over today's match

Post by Joe L on 2/25/2014, 1:05 pm

I did fine relative to the other green bullseye shooters last weekend.  High score centerfire and overall, and was 9 points off the high score for the 22 after only shooting 2 rounds out of 5 on one rapid fire stage.  Others apparently had a worse day than I did, and I thought I had blown the whole match.

Joe

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Re: Lots of room to improve over today's match

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