Rule Question

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

Rule Question

Post by dstates on 4/1/2014, 12:13 pm

On another forum I mentioned that I'm shooting a Ruger Mk III for bullseye and I have replaced the standard hammer bushing with a replacement that allows me to remove the magazine disconnect.  In some replies I'm told that removal of the magazine disconnect is not legal to remove.  Others have told me it is not an issue.  I'd like to keep the mag disconnect out as it drops the magazines so much better without it.

Anyone out there have some insight for me on how it would be perceived at Perry? Is the magazine disconnect truly a safety device per the rules, or can the normal safety, which is completely functional, cover that rule?

Thanks!

dstates

Posts : 191
Join date : 2013-03-05
Location : Near Moline, IL

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/1/2014, 1:24 pm

I submitted that exact question to the Director of Pistol Competition, and he stated that a magazine disconnect IS a safety device, and the rulebook states:

3.4 .22 caliber Pistol or Revolver -



Any pistol (single shot or semi-automatic) or revolver using a .22 caliber rim-fire cartridge having an overall length of not more than 1.1 inches and with lead or alloy bullet not greater than .23 inches in diameter and weighing not more than 40 grains; barrel length, including cylinder, not more than 10 inches. Trigger pull not less than 2 pounds. Any sights, including telescopic, are permitted with the exception of those sights that project an image on the target. Open sights may be adjustable but not over 10 inches apart measured from the apex of the rear sight to the apex of the front sight. Any sighting device programmed to activate the firing mechanism is prohibited. All standard safety features of the gun must operate properly.


Now, the operative term there is "standard".  On a Ruger MkII, a magazine disconnect is NOT standard.  Perhaps your gun is a Volquartzen or some other Ruger MkII clone--not an MK III that had such a safety.

When you go to camp perry or another match that inspects the pistol, perhaps you have your magazine safety ready for re-installation if your gun inspector tests that function. 

Perhaps your "Ruger" builder engraves "this gun is designed to fire without a magazine inserted" on the barrel.

Anything that you do other than leave the magazine disconnect in and functioning is going to put you in a gray area.

I would only do this if I was ready to be involved in a pissing match, or take my gun apart to restore that function.
avatar
Rob Kovach
Admin

Posts : 2702
Join date : 2011-06-13
Age : 44
Location : Brooklyn, WI

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by james r chapman on 4/1/2014, 4:18 pm

dstates, I'd go to this site and direct the question to the administrator,bullseye. I found him to be the most knowledgable gunsmith/competitor on the Ruger MK series guns.

http://guntalk-online.com/forum/index.php
avatar
james r chapman
Admin

Posts : 2611
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 69
Location : HELL, Michigan

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by Vociferous on 4/1/2014, 6:21 pm

Mr. Chapman, growing up in the Detroit area, I've been to Hell.  And back.
avatar
Vociferous

Posts : 79
Join date : 2012-02-23
Age : 49
Location : North Carolina

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by james r chapman on 4/1/2014, 6:54 pm

congrats!! Did you have a HELL of a good time? Play any miniature golf?

Drive a Harley there??






avatar
james r chapman
Admin

Posts : 2611
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 69
Location : HELL, Michigan

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by dstates on 4/1/2014, 9:40 pm

Okay, so here is another "safety" feature that I hear about people removing...  Is it legal to switch out a SA ILS mainspring assembly or parts with a standard GI version?

dstates

Posts : 191
Join date : 2013-03-05
Location : Near Moline, IL

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/1/2014, 10:58 pm

ILS is not a safety feature. Using the ILS makes the gun inoperable.  It is not intended to be operated when the gun is used.

Also, ILS is not a "standard" feature on a 1911.  It's unique to those springfields.
avatar
Rob Kovach
Admin

Posts : 2702
Join date : 2011-06-13
Age : 44
Location : Brooklyn, WI

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by dstates on 4/2/2014, 6:41 am

So, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but the ILS is standard on a Springfield Range Officer.  So with the same reasoning about the magazine disconnect, if it comes on the gun, then do I need to leave it there?  A magazine disconnect does not come on all Rugers, it's unique to the Mk III (vs. the Mk I or Mk II).  So can it be left out like the ILS feature?

One could also say that the magazine disconnect  is not intended to be operated when the gun is used.  If you always have a magazine in the gun when you are shooting, like you would during a bullseye match, there is no need for it.

Does this logic work?

dstates

Posts : 191
Join date : 2013-03-05
Location : Near Moline, IL

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/2/2014, 6:51 am

I tried every conceivable argument with the NRA regarding your question, and they were hearing none of it.

No matter what is "standard" on a springfield 1911, it's still a 1911--a gun that as the tens of millions before it to define what "standard" is.
avatar
Rob Kovach
Admin

Posts : 2702
Join date : 2011-06-13
Age : 44
Location : Brooklyn, WI

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by kc.crawford.7 on 4/2/2014, 6:56 am

I'll jump in on this one.  For practical purposes no one will care unless you 1) set a new national record, 2) piss someone off and they turn you in to a ref.  S&W model 41 mag safety is deactivated all the time and no one cares.  Now that being said, the rule book says all factory safety devices must be present and functional.  By Rugers defination the magazine disconnect is a safety feature of that pistol on the MK III.  Roll the dice and take your chances.
 
On the SA guns with the ILS.  That is not a "safety" to the firearm, that is a safety to prevent unauthorized use of the pistol.  Different animal.
avatar
kc.crawford.7

Posts : 407
Join date : 2012-12-09
Location : Maysville, NC

http://www.kcskustomcreations.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by james r chapman on 4/2/2014, 8:35 am

ok, the magazine disconnect in the hammer/sear bushing of the Ruger mkIII must be intact to be NRA legal. the inspectors are aware of the modification done to tighten up slop and smooth the trigger, so expect for them to do a magazine disconnect check at big matches. In my gun, I machined a replacement bushing that allowed for the disconnect to work.

you pay the money and take your chances.

jim
avatar
james r chapman
Admin

Posts : 2611
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 69
Location : HELL, Michigan

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by DavidR on 4/2/2014, 9:24 am

Many guns on the line are not legal, too light a trigger, or other issue, in all the years of shooting I have never had a gun checked in a 2700 match even at regionals and state matches and only once at camp perry and that was a simple trigger weight check on my 45. Im not advocating using a non rule conforming gun just saying more than likely using one would never be a issue.
avatar
DavidR
Admin

Posts : 3010
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 64
Location : NRA:Expert, Georgia

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/2/2014, 9:29 am

KC makes a great point.  If a "big match" is going to try to DQ you for not having a working magazine disconnect on your MKIII, then insist that every Model 41 that doesn't have one be treated the same way.

I predict that the inspector will end the discussion on that point and won't bother you again.
avatar
Rob Kovach
Admin

Posts : 2702
Join date : 2011-06-13
Age : 44
Location : Brooklyn, WI

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by dstates on 4/2/2014, 9:51 am

One last question... Do they only inspect guns after the match, before the match or both? 

In other words, if your trigger was too light before they match, do they allow you the chance to adjust it into spec?  I'm guessing that they don't do that because then it gives a person a reason to try to get by with the lighter trigger, right?

dstates

Posts : 191
Join date : 2013-03-05
Location : Near Moline, IL

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by james r chapman on 4/2/2014, 10:16 am

sure they do. they just won't tag it until it complies.

as to Rob's comments, it's the same as telling a cop he has to arrest everyone speeding...ain't happenin', you got caught.
avatar
james r chapman
Admin

Posts : 2611
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 69
Location : HELL, Michigan

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by DavidR on 4/2/2014, 11:57 am

If trigger weighing is being done its before the match, and most times in regular matches you have time to adjust. If they check you at Perry, which is done while on the line, if it fails then  in most cases your just screwed.
I don't see this ruger safety thing helping you shoot better but the rules say no, many who use a series 80 1911 with the firing pin safety removed and that little metal plate replacing it and don't think twice about it violating the rules but it does. Many shooters shoot these and the only place it might ever be questioned is in a cmp check for a hardball match.
avatar
DavidR
Admin

Posts : 3010
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 64
Location : NRA:Expert, Georgia

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by dstates on 4/2/2014, 12:12 pm

I know I said "one last question" before, but I thought of another one.  I know some people have removed the loaded chamber indicator on Ruger Mk III's (I haven't), would that be considered a safety device?

dstates

Posts : 191
Join date : 2013-03-05
Location : Near Moline, IL

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by james r chapman on 4/2/2014, 1:09 pm

please place 50¢ in the cup please..
avatar
james r chapman
Admin

Posts : 2611
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 69
Location : HELL, Michigan

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by james r chapman on 4/2/2014, 1:14 pm

although I once had my shotshells chronographed at a major shoot. as David say's, it probably won't happen, and Zins says , why have that worry in your head...

avatar
james r chapman
Admin

Posts : 2611
Join date : 2012-01-31
Age : 69
Location : HELL, Michigan

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/2/2014, 1:33 pm

James,

There has to be some inkling of equal of application of the rules.  Unlike a speeding ticket, the other violators would be present and not moving away from the enforcement area until after the match is over.

dstates,
At Camp Perry, the trigger is weighed and safeties are checked usually the day you get there.  If that inspector passes your gun, you are good to shoot. 

There are spot checks on the firing line for trigger weight, but I don't think they do the whole safety check routine--I think they are just checking trigger weight.

I don't remember a safety check that would be conducted after a match--unless you set some sort of record.  Your gun is checked immediately following a record being set.

David R is incorrect.  Shooters who get nipped for light triggers on the line are not screwed--they can correct the issue and fire on a subsequent relay. If the Referees at Perry do spot check your trigger on the line and the referee does rule that the magazine disconnect is a safety that you have disabled, you WILL be allowed to rectify the issue and shoot on a subsequent relay.  It would only be a problem if you were shooting .22 on relay 3.  (that's when the HMs shoot)

What this all comes down to is this:  If you can leave the magazine disconnect in place without substantially effecting how you shoot your gun, leave it in.  If you take it out, you may shoot for decades and never have a referree rule against you.  But one day, there might be a HA referee that rules against you, and you won't win that appeal.
avatar
Rob Kovach
Admin

Posts : 2702
Join date : 2011-06-13
Age : 44
Location : Brooklyn, WI

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by DavidR on 4/2/2014, 2:07 pm

IMO, Rob K you are incorrect,I think most would agree to be singled out and asked to pack up and leave the firing line at camp perry in front of all my fellow shooters would constitute getting majorly screwed.  Laughing  Not to say its all over for  as you will be allowed to fire at another time provided your gun passes.
avatar
DavidR
Admin

Posts : 3010
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 64
Location : NRA:Expert, Georgia

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/2/2014, 2:13 pm

You have a GREAT point DavidR!
avatar
Rob Kovach
Admin

Posts : 2702
Join date : 2011-06-13
Age : 44
Location : Brooklyn, WI

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by Ed Hall on 4/2/2014, 2:59 pm

OK, I'll chime in, especially since it was stated and I just posted a similar message to the List:

Where in the Ruger Mark III Manual, is the "Magazine Disconnect" called a "safety?"

Of other note, in doing a trigger weight check, the referee will know if the gun needs a magazine or not...

Ed Hall

Posts : 549
Join date : 2012-09-10
Location : Adirondack Mountains

http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by Rob Kovach on 4/2/2014, 3:09 pm

I think we rely more on the rulebooks phrase: "All standard safety features of the gun must operate properly."
The interpretation of this phrase by the referee to determine if it's a "safety feature" or if it is a "disconnect".

Your other points are good points to justify removing the "magazine disconnect" and not worry about a problem with the referees.
avatar
Rob Kovach
Admin

Posts : 2702
Join date : 2011-06-13
Age : 44
Location : Brooklyn, WI

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by DavidR on 4/2/2014, 3:39 pm

Ruger, says this, which depending on how you interpret  it could go either way,
Remember that a round may still be in the chamber and that the pistol may still be

loaded even if the magazine is removed. As always, you should not rely upon the

magazine disconnect or any other mechanical device or safety to justify careless or

unsafe handling of any firearm.
avatar
DavidR
Admin

Posts : 3010
Join date : 2011-06-10
Age : 64
Location : NRA:Expert, Georgia

Back to top Go down

Re: Rule Question

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum