open sights

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open sights

Post by jbking on 5/6/2014, 10:48 pm

I am trying to get into bullseye and want try to shoot at club tournament. I have my old fathers's model 41, a Model 14 6" and bought 45 Range Officer...all open sights. Is it pointless to try to shoot without aimpoints on the 41 and 45. Does anyone still do it?

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Re: open sights

Post by john bickar on 5/6/2014, 11:21 pm

I've shot 2630+ many times with open sights, and in the 21st century even.

Go for it.
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Re: open sights

Post by LenV on 5/6/2014, 11:33 pm

No,it is not pointless to shoot with open sights. Myself and a lot of older shooters got their master cards with open sights.If you want to get distinguished with hardball or revolver you will have to do it with open sights. The best practice for those matches is with the pistol set up the way you have to do it in a match. I shoot dots now with these old eyes but I still put a lot of rounds every month through the hardball gun.

Len
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Re: open sights

Post by john bickar on 5/7/2014, 1:00 am

My advice: most bullseye guns that I see with iron sights on them (e.g., hardball guns, Gold Cups, what-have-you) have the rear notch way too narrow. Take a file to the rear notch and open it up on either side a bit.
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Re: open sights

Post by dstates on 5/7/2014, 6:34 am

John,

Could you measure one of your rear sights and let us know what it is?  I'm curious...

Thanks,
Doug States

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Re: open sights

Post by desben on 5/7/2014, 7:26 am

John, I'm curious too as to why you think a wider notch is preferable. I won't debate a wide notch usefulness for action shooting, but for precision I always thought that narrower is better (up to a point).

From the picture below, what ratio would you say is ideal?

http://www.australiancynic.com/sights.pdf
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Re: open sights

Post by john bickar on 5/7/2014, 9:00 am

I just measured one of my wad guns with a Bo-Mar rib on it with an extended front sight.
* Rear notch: 0.145"
* Front sight width: 0.138"
* Sight radius: 8.5"

So probably closest to the 1:4:1 as pictured in desben's post above.

I find the stock Bo-Mar rear sight width to be closer to the 1:5:1 ratio as in the bottom picture, which is tough in low light, tough in sustained fire, tough if you have a hold that's less than perfect, and makes it tough to squeeze the trigger aggressively.
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Re: open sights

Post by DavidR on 5/7/2014, 9:33 am

The key is to be able to focus on the front sight, if you cant then get a special set of prescription glasses made that does it.
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Re: open sights

Post by AllAces on 5/7/2014, 10:04 am

Start with open sights and learn the fundamentals as they are the basis for bullseye shooting.  If you wear glasses, ask the people who fit you for a pair of computer glasses as this is about the range of the front sight on a 1911, and the mention of a gun won't scare the sales person. My eye doc is a BE shooter so he measures me for the front sight.
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Re: open sights

Post by james r chapman on 5/7/2014, 10:12 am

the eye will center a front blade it can easily see.

don't lose it in the rear sight...
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Re: open sights

Post by Jack H on 5/7/2014, 10:28 am

Acuity of vision and light conditions come into play for extreme precision.  Bottom line is doing everything you can to make it easy to see and stay focused on the front sight.


Last edited by Jack H on 5/7/2014, 8:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: open sights

Post by TexasShooter on 5/7/2014, 11:50 am

jbking wrote: Is it pointless to try to shoot without aimpoints on the 41 and 45. Does anyone still do it?

I'm new to Bullseye too and wondered the same thing...until I tried the red dots. I found out pretty quickly that my lack of skill made the red dot much too distracting - I don't hold steady enough and that durn little dot just danced all over the place, dragging my eye with it and I was chasing that dot all over the target. I tried different intensities, different reticles but it really didn't get any better. I went back to iron sights and my scores increased 10-15 points. Like some of the other folks I have old eyes so I'm sure I'll be going back to the red dot someday, but for now I quit worrying about my equipment and am trying to work on skills.

My long-winded point is that you may want to see if someone will let you try their gun with optics before jumping in - you may find that iron sights are a pretty good answer.

Clay

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Re: open sights

Post by Rob Kovach on 5/7/2014, 1:57 pm

I just switched back to all irons as part of my work towards Distinguished Revolver and Distinguished Pistol.  Shot my first outdoor match of the season and got 809 with the .22  and 776 with the .45.  It was great fun!
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Re: open sights

Post by dstates on 5/7/2014, 3:52 pm

So I did the math on the ratio of the notch space to front sight using John B's Bomar sight dimensions.  Assuming that the rear sight is 28 inches from his eye and using desben's graphic format the ratio would be:

1 : 5.4 : 1

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Re: open sights

Post by dstates on 5/7/2014, 5:50 pm

I'm an engineer so I like topics like this... I did some more math with my two bullseye guns (even though I shoot them with dots).

My SA Range Officer =  1 : 10 : 1
My Mk III 5.5" Target = 1 : 6.6 : 1

Looks like when I put my irons back on my Range Officer I might have to get out a file

Doug

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Re: open sights

Post by LenV on 5/7/2014, 8:09 pm

I just picked up my RO held it out and looked thru the sights.Looks like a perfect 1:4:1. I scientifically deducted that I have shorter arms than you. Smile
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Re: open sights

Post by dstates on 5/7/2014, 9:24 pm

OldMaster64, it could be shorter arms  Smile 

Unfortunately I can't confirm my numbers with a visual comparison.  I have dots on both of my pistols.  It is definitely a possibility my math is flawed.

Now I'm curious.. For my Range Officer I measured a front post that is 0.118" wide and a rear notch that is 0.116" wide with a sight radius of about 6 inches.  Does that match your Range Officer?

Doug

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Re: open sights

Post by jbking on 5/7/2014, 9:27 pm

Well I have to say when I posted the open sight vs. red dot question I never thought about the front sight rear sight ratio question........now I have something else to worry about....just kidding. I think I will take the advice of most stick with open sights and try to focus on the fundamentals and practice for the time being. Save my money on the dots and pay for the expensive ammo of late. As a new member it is enlightening and entertaining to see how some of these questions on these threads lead.

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Re: open sights

Post by LenV on 5/7/2014, 9:47 pm

Doug

   I do have slightly different measurements for the notch(0.113) and blade(0.120)but I think the biggie is that my sight radius is 7" from back of sight to back of blade. That would change the math.

Len
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Re: open sights

Post by dstates on 5/7/2014, 9:55 pm

Sorry, jbking, we don't mean to steal threads Smile

I only started shooting bullseye a couple winters ago.  I didn't stick with irons for very long because I had difficulty judging the sight picture the same each time.  I switched to a red dot and was able to focus on my trigger more and the sights less.  I've read a bunch of threads on here and I would say it is split down the middle on what people recommend.  Many times they just suggest doing what they did when they started.  If you have the chance to shoot someone else's gun with a red dot, don't pass that up.

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Re: open sights

Post by Sa-tevp on 5/7/2014, 10:42 pm

I've noticed with some of the rear sights I have widened that the metal is very hard. Can someone recommend a good file or stone for the task, something that will make a smooth and square notch?

Oh yeah, put me in the 1-4-1 category and a +.50 aiming eye lens. A local glasses shop made some prescription safety glasses for me after I tried +.25, +.50 and +.75 in some shooting frames to determine best lens choice for most conditions. Too bad +.375 and +.625 are not available for different lighting conditions.
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Re: open sights

Post by tonyg on 5/9/2014, 11:25 am

jbking wrote:Well I have to say when I posted the open sight vs. red dot question I never thought about the front sight rear sight ratio question........now I have something else to worry about....just kidding. I think I will take the advice of most stick with open sights and try to focus on the fundamentals and practice for the time being. Save my money on the dots and pay for the expensive ammo of late. As a new member it is enlightening and entertaining to see how some of these questions on these threads lead.



Hi jbking, If you shot ten meter Air pistol you would be very familiar with the rear sight notch's effect on varying light

conditions. most modern 10M AP's have adjustable rear width sight notches for coping with lighting conditions.

But, I really want to encourage you to visit your favorite Ophthalmologist and get a prescription that enables you

to focus sharply on the front sight. The advantage of going to the Ophthalmologist for a refraction is that he/she

will correct your vision for any cylinder(astigmatism) offset your eyes may have. I'm 73 years old and I can see

the front blade sharply and with very good contrast. Our eyes are still flexible at my age and I can see the front

sight blade even if it's a couple of inches short or long of my prescribed focus.  Very Happy 

Tony

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Re: open sights

Post by desben on 5/9/2014, 11:45 am

jbking wrote:Is it pointless to try to shoot without aimpoints on the 41 and 45. Does anyone still do it?

I think you had your answer, but I would like to add that all ISSF (international bullseye) shooting is done with open sights. No red-dots are allowed at the olympics.

Where I'm at in Ontario, Canada, nobody uses a red dot. The local leagues and matches tend to follow ISSF rules as opposed to NRA. Some shooters, young or old, still produce outstanding groups. I believe most of Europe shoots without red dots also.
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Re: open sights

Post by Sa-tevp on 6/12/2014, 6:20 pm

Brownells sells this file:  31204 #2 CUT, 4 V.E.N. PILLAR FILE catalog number 360-312-041. Works well, is sharp and has safe edges. If you take your time and make smooth steady strokes, you can make a nice cut. I used one to square up a few sights I had widened in the past, and then a dab of Birchwood Casey Super Blue to hide the evidence.

( I have to admit I miss having tool and die men as neighbors.)
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Re: open sights

Post by Rob Kovach on 6/12/2014, 7:34 pm

I just shoot my irons how they came from the factory.
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