185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

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185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Jwhelan939 on Sun May 11, 2014 3:39 pm

What are the benefits of using the 185 over the 200 grain lswc? I currently use 200 grain lswc from KINGSHOOTER over 4 gn BE with Starline brass and Winchester primers. I also sort my bullets and seat twitch a fingernail of shoulder. I have a Colt gold cup that has been accurized. It was also fitted with a barrel by Ed brown. When I sandbag this load I am getting 4" at 25yds. Seems like I should have a tighter group. Any suggestions? Any 185 shooter's feel they are more accurate?

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun May 11, 2014 7:00 pm

The 200s are usually more accurate, and the 185s offer less recoil.
I'm using 200s now (H&G 68 mold soft enough alloy that you can mark them with your thumbnail) after using 185s for about a year.
The only 185s that I shot that were as accurate as my 200s were the ZERO 185gr Swaged Hollow Point LSWC.  It has more weight around the edge and the same amount of barrel contact surface as the cast 200s.  The main reason I switched to 200s is I get them from a local caster for $60/1000.
My load is 3.8gr BE, same seating depth, .468crimp

Bench rest testing of ammo is not easy.  Have you been able to achieve groups better than that before?  Before we reinvent the wheel, we should address that first.
If that's not it, some of the commercially cast bullets are really hard, and they may have leaded your barrel with the 4.0 BE.
What crimp?
Who's bullets? Are they soft enough to mark them with your thumbnail?

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Jwhelan939 on Sun May 11, 2014 7:11 pm

Hey Rob. Thanks for the response. This was my first time benchresting the goldcup. KINGSHOOTER casts "better bullets." the 200 are cast to a brinell of 21. So they are pretty hard. I crimp to 470. I had a LFC die, but I haven't tried it yet. I never shoot more than 200 rounds without cleaning because of the close clearances of the slide to frame.

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Jwhelan939 on Sun May 11, 2014 7:22 pm

I should add that it has an ultradot slide mounted with a 12# recoil spring.

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun May 11, 2014 7:40 pm

I had it backwards above^^

If you push the really hard cast bullets too slow, they tend to lead the barrel.  That will make the accuracy horrible.

I have had really good luck with hard bullets not leading up my barrel, but your results may vary...I'm pushing mine slower, but I don't think I've ever shot cast bullets that are that hard. 


Pull your barrel, and see if there is any residue in the bore.  If there is any, use bore solvent and clean your barrel, then try 3.8gr BE and a 10lb recoil spring.  If you aren't able to find any softer bullets, I'll will give you the contact info for the guy who casts mine.


Last edited by Rob Kovach on Sun May 11, 2014 7:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun May 11, 2014 7:41 pm

So at 21 brinell, you can't make a mark in the bullet with your thumbnail?

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Jwhelan939 on Sun May 11, 2014 8:03 pm

No definitely no marks with thumb.

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun May 11, 2014 8:21 pm

Let's start by checking for leading in the barrel, and finding softer bullets.  At the slow speeds that we shoot at, the lead isn't sealing effectively and might be allowing erratic gas leakage/erratic velocities which might be the cause of the poor accuracy.

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Jwhelan939 on Sun May 11, 2014 9:32 pm

Definitely no leading. Barrel cleans up with ease. I'll look for some softer projectiles. 15 hardness seems to be normal. Any thoughts?

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Jwhelan939 on Sun May 11, 2014 10:01 pm

Oregon trail is 24. Even higher than what I am shooting now. Any recommendations?

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Brettitt41 on Sun May 11, 2014 10:07 pm

I like these in Bullseye flavor. LOL #12 Brinell 200LSWC.

http://www.missouribullet.com/results.php?category=5&secondary=13

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun May 11, 2014 10:32 pm

At those hardnesses, there must be a ton of metal other than lead in there.  That should make them much lighter than they should weigh.

Just for curiosity sake, clean all the lube off and weigh them.  I predict they are much lighter than the 185 gr. that they are supposed to weigh!

I talked to my local bulletcaster.  He says he will sell bullets to the members of the forum.  I will put the ad in commercial row.

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Jwhelan939 on Sun May 11, 2014 11:01 pm

Thanks bret. Sounds good. I'll try them out. Rob, give me a couple mins. I'll post the weight within the hour.

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Jwhelan939 on Mon May 12, 2014 12:00 am

Ron, you said they would way less than 185. Did you mean 200? The one I weighed was 199.9 with lube and 199.5 without.

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Rob Kovach on Mon May 12, 2014 1:21 am

Yes, I meant 200.
Can you post a picture of the bullet?

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by noylj on Mon May 12, 2014 1:59 am

Hard bullets lead unless they are large enough to seal the bore.
I prefer Zero and Precision Delta swaged 200gn or mastercastbuets.com, Missouri bullets, or Penn bullets in 11-15 BHN then trying to get the wrong alloy to work


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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Jwhelan939 on Mon May 12, 2014 9:41 am

That's my second vote for Missouri bullets. I just placed an order. Hopefully that'll help. I'll lower my load to 3.8 and work my way up to see what works best. Thanks for the help.

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Steve B on Mon May 12, 2014 11:09 am

I found the Zero 185 SWCHP swaged bullets have outperformed the 200 SWC bullet, either swaged or cast, in my guns.  VV N310 and Clays have produced the best results up to this point, with a .469 ~ .470 crimp.

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by tonyg on Mon May 12, 2014 4:20 pm

Jwhelan939 wrote:What are the benefits of using the 185 over the 200 grain lswc? I currently use 200 grain lswc from KINGSHOOTER over 4 gn BE with Starline brass and Winchester primers. I also sort my bullets and seat twitch a fingernail of shoulder. I have a Colt gold cup that has been accurized. It was also fitted with a barrel by Ed brown. When I sandbag this load I am getting 4" at 25yds. Seems like I should have a tighter group. Any suggestions? Any 185 shooter's feel they are more accurate?



Wow Jwhelan, When I first started shooting Bullseye in 1972/1973(?); we Ransom Rested

my Gold Cup, that I got a year before.  My Gold Cup shot a 2 1/4" ctc ten shot group at 50 yards

using the range master's loads that used H&G #130(185grain) bullets. I don't remember the

 powder or charge he used...that was just too long ago. I would guess that your pistol could

 probably shoot better than 4"ctc at 50 yards. 

As an aside I do use H&G 200 grain bullets for Timed and Rapid fire. They are loaded very light

using 3.1gr BE; and they will group into the X-ring, and obviously have a very light recoil.


 Good luck;  Smile Tony

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by DavidR on Mon May 12, 2014 4:31 pm

Unless those 200 gr bullet are deformed or full of air bubbles then 4'' 25 yd groups with your load is way off the norm.,  I have tested many 200 gr,lswc  bullseye loads and most  will shoot under 3'' at 50 yards. Sounds like your gun needs a new barrel, id suggest a Kart national match.

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Jwhelan939 on Mon May 12, 2014 6:18 pm

Tony, I wish I could get my hands on a Ransom rest! The sandbag is far from scientific. The 4" was far end to far end, not center to center, and it was a 20 shot group. I know the Pistol is capable of better. I'm sure I also need to refine my sandbag technique.

David, the barrel is only 450 shots old. It was fitted by Ed brown. The lockup is perfect, with zero spring, crown and feed ramp are perfectly polished, the bushing fit has perfect clearance, the lower lugs are trimmed right, and the hood fit is nice and tight. I definitely don't think anything is wrong with the barrel. I have complete confidence that the Ransom rest would show much better groups. I just felt that I could get more out of my ammo. That was the basis of my question about 185 vs 200. After talking with Rob Kovach, I did some research on brinell's effect on expansion. I never considered the effects of a light load (with low cup) on the expansion of a hard lswc. Hopefully the softer lead will work out a little better. In the mean time I'm working on renting a Ransom rest. Anyone inthe Philadelphia area have one for rent?

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by james r chapman on Mon May 12, 2014 8:09 pm

Why don't you have ed brown test it.

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Jwhelan939 on Mon May 12, 2014 8:22 pm

Rob, I have tried posting a pic, but I'm not sure how. I don't have a computer so I only use the mobile version. Not sure if that makes a difference? James, I'm gonna try some other things first. But if I have no luck I may just do that. Thank you to everyone for their thoughts and advice!

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Dr.Don on Tue May 13, 2014 12:31 am

Anytime you have questions about whether poor group tests are the gun or the ammo, drop back and test the gun using a jacketed bullet load with widely apparent good results.  I use a Hornady 185 JSWC over 4.3 of bullseye, and it or a similar load has been accurate in every gun I have owned or built.  There are certainly other proven jacketed loads.  Once you know the gun can shoot accurately you can move on to figuring out what is wrong with your loads.  A load that proves to be poor is most often due to the bullet, especially when dealing with cast bullets; so eliminate that factor when trying to determine if the gun is ok.

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

Post by Colt711 on Tue May 13, 2014 1:50 am

While a Kart is the barrel to use when building or re barreling a WC .45 do not rush into a change in this situation until it is proven your barrel is less accurate than desired. And if it is and you purchased the Colt new contact them first to see if they will rectify the problem.

If possible have an experienced Ransom operator help you out.
More than likely the gun will shoot. Trying factory ammo such as Fed Auto Match or Atlanta Arms or reloads using a bullet as suggested above is good advice.
Ron Habegger

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Re: 185 LSWC vs 200 lswc

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