Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

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Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by bmac on 5/31/2014, 9:47 am

First topic message reminder :

A wider variety of pistols classified as service pistols + more EIC matches per year.

http://www.thecmp.org/competitions/Forms/ProposedCMPPistolProgramChanges.pdf

Comment period ends July 7th.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Wes Lorenz on 12/30/2014, 2:24 pm

Exciting for sure!
If you read all of Mr. Anderson's column;

  • The new rulebook will be published in January


  • The 1st Leg match under the new rules will be on April 11 at the Oklahoma CMP games


  • No more silly modification rules that exempt 99 % of 1911's in current production


  • Allow the regular gun club member to compete with a pistol they most likely have


  • The any jacketed bullets rule will only up the score needed to get points (like the AR-15 did in Rifle)


  • A .22 Distinguished badge and rules that may revive the US Shooting team and Jr development.

Nice job CMP!
I think it's great!

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Colt711 on 12/30/2014, 3:07 pm

"No more silly modification rules that exempt 99 % of 1911's in current production".  +1

Common Sense!  CMP is at least on the job.

A new shooter shot practice with us for some time. A deformed hand restricted his grip. He asked NRA if he could use an "aid". He was refrerred to the appropriate rule and instructed to "design" and submit etc. He did and after not hearing for months he called NRA HQ. "Yeah it's layin here on my desk and I don't see how we can approve it" was the reply.

We lost a gentlemen who would have been a credit to us. The device he designed would have allowed him to shoot. period. It would not have made him into a Blakenship or an Anderson just a shooter. But of course w/ the crowded FL's we don't need more of those. He is now shooting steel and refuses to even continue NRA membership.

Ron Habegger


Last edited by Colt711 on 12/30/2014, 3:10 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Add steel info)

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by KenO on 12/30/2014, 5:30 pm

Looks good to me. I can run jacketed bullets in my wad gun and be legal.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Rob Kovach on 12/30/2014, 7:26 pm

All my .45s were ball legal per the old rules so no problems there.  My primary gun shoots 185gr Nosler/Zero JHPs SOOOO GOOOD & shoots 230gr hardball like crap so I'm looking forward getting my hard leg and 10 more points to leg out this year.

I just ordered my Noslers from Midway.  They say I will get them by Friday!

I agree with the sentimentals that we are losing some tradition.  I disagree that these changes will make it easier to earn the badge.  There will be a brief arms/ammo race, but when it comes down to it, most of us who are shooting well enough to be distinguished already earned it the old way.

In the long run this change is going to lead to more competitors.  More shooters on the line means more legs issued on easy lines for the short-term, but if those additional competitors stick with it and make a chase for their badge, the competition will be fierce soon enough. 

Full lines with shooters who can make the cut will make for some fierce competition for those legs, and maybe that will be more rewarding than winning one on an empty line with hardball ammo.

Now what should I do with these boxes of 230gr bullets......
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Jon Eulette on 12/30/2014, 8:02 pm

So I guess to summarize the new rules, I'd call it an "EIC Wadgun Match". Service Pistol doesn't exist anymore. I don't mind the thumb safety,  beavertail grip safety or commander hammer allowances, but the change from 230 gr to 185's takes the cake. I don't think it's going to change the pecking order because fundamentals are fundamentals,  but let's be realistic; it's not service pistol anymore. I do like the minimum 250 score. I am interested in seeing the matches grow, I only hope this helps.
Jon
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by robert84010 on 12/30/2014, 8:11 pm

from a guy that lives in a state that has had ONE pistol EIC match in 7 years, I applaud the CMP. I won't agree with all the changes but they are at least trying to keep it all alive. I'm willing to bet most of the board didn't want to make changes but felt they had to, most of the board is Distinguished so think about their dilemma. 

Rob, when you leg out I won't ask what ammo you shot. I will just shake your hand and congratulate you. stay focused (on the front sight) and keep plugging away. 
p.s. don't blame the bullet for your score, not cool. when you look back on it all, you will understand what i'm saying.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Wes Lorenz on 12/30/2014, 9:47 pm

Hi Jon,
This was the same feeling most had when the CMP allowed "any safe ammo" (down loaded 230gr Ball).
I have seen 80gr JHP bullets make a rifle leg harder to get and light weight pistol JHP's, more than likely, will up the scores in pistol Legs only making it harder, so I don't really feel it will diminish the Badge and those who earn it from now on.
As a match director, I hope this will fill the line with new and younger competitors!
Wes
FWIW, I earned both badges under DCM rules

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Rob Kovach on 12/30/2014, 10:45 pm

Robert 84010,
I have been scoring well despite my gun's aversion to 230 Hardball.  I am happy that I won 1 of my legs the old fashioned way against a Beretta shooter.  I know I've earned that one.

I can assume that my future competitors are going to have ammo that works well in their gun as I shoot in the future.  I already know that my scores are right there for the win with either ammo.  It's just going to be more fun for me to go to the short line with a 95 instead of an 85 from now on.

Besides, I plan on winning the legs that I'm going to be shooting this year.  Having a diluted line wont cheapen this for me at all since I'm going to win these matches outright.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by gitkrunk on 12/30/2014, 11:26 pm

so with min scores to leg do you still have to the minimum amount of shooters?
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by dronning on 12/31/2014, 12:12 am

gitkrunk wrote:so with min scores to leg do you still have to the minimum amount of shooters?

yes the number of potential legs depend on the number of shooters just like before.

Now you could have 50 shooters and no points given if no one breaks 250.

- Dave


Last edited by dronning on 12/31/2014, 12:14 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarity)
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by robert84010 on 12/31/2014, 1:14 am

Rob, you are on your way now.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by james r chapman on 12/31/2014, 6:19 am

I bemoan the loss of "service pistol" also, but, getting a leg over 100 shooters rather than the old minimum, will keep the goal worthwhile. Imho
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by CR10X on 12/31/2014, 8:41 am

I don't really care about the changes anyway, I'll still be using the same gun I've shot 295 in competition with before, so don't even think I'm talking about any personal equipment preferences here: 

Regardless of any concept of "good" or "bad" or "easier" for these changes, I would like to point out that we are missing a very important concept here.    

The current rule book was stated to be in effect through 2015.  Says so right on the cover.  The CMP has an "emergency" clause stated on the web page for changes, but what's the emergency and when was it declared?

By the CMP implementing these changes during 2015 and by us accepting them, we have removed the trust we placed in the CMP to properly create and implement rule changes in accordance with the guidelines they established.  The changes might be "good" or "bad" in concept for the sport, but is it right?

I don't mind changes at all, if they are well thought out, useful, and don't change the flavor of the sport too much.  I do mind not keeping your word.  How are we going to feel about the CMP and future changes based on this example?

Just some thoughts for today (and the last comment I'll make on this subject).  I'm going to go dryfire.  

CMP
COMPETITION RULES
FOR SERVICE RIFLE
AND SERVICE PISTOL
18th Edition—2014-2015
These Rules govern all CMP sponsored and sanctioned
Matches with Service Rifle and Service Pistol events,
including National Trophy Rifle and Pistol Matches,
Excellence-In-Competition (EIC) Matches,
and other CMP-sanctioned competitions
© 2014, Civilian Marksmanship Program
Effective date 1 February 2014
This edition supersedes the 17th 2013 Edition and
will remain in effect through the 2015 competition year.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.William Pitt


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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by dronning on 12/31/2014, 9:20 am

CR10X wrote:................By the CMP implementing these changes during 2015 and by us accepting them, we have removed the trust we placed in the CMP to properly create and implement rule changes in accordance with the guidelines they established.  The changes might be "good" or "bad" in concept for the sport, but is it right?............

I don't see it that way at all. In the past changes to the rules were never published until April or March of the year they were implemented.

They decided to print the book to cover 2 years to save money it was not a "promise" to do nothing. I feel that if they waited for the extra year it would have been precious time lost.

The CMP actively sought feedback, published what they were thinking and sought feedback again after telling everyone what the proposed changes might be and that the final decision would be in 2014.

I feel the CMP has kept their promise by being actively engaged to try and move things forward and not just let the Pistol EIC matches stagnate locally.

- Dave

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by DavidR on 12/31/2014, 9:39 am

The truth is its change or watch the end come to the matches, the last 3 EIC matches I shot in had the match officers racing around trying to round up 6 ND shooters, the last leg went for under 220 because 4 of the 6 were either young kids or guys who didn't shoot anymore. The ammo change will up scores, the 250 minimum will stop the giving away of leg points. It wont make it easier, it will take a better shooter to earn which is the goal as it was.
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"Hardball"

Post by paulb1946 on 12/31/2014, 9:58 am

The draft proposal does make some interesting and progressive changes that will most likely generate more competitive interest. Overall, the "blue ribbon panel" did a nice job, not everyone is going to agree with all the changes.

I especially like the minimum Service Pistol score requirement of 250 and increase of Matches from 1-3 to 1-5.

I do disagree with thoughts on barrel lengths longer than 5 inches and still maintain the description of "Service Pistol". As a retired Police Officer and long-time LE Firearms Instructor I can tell you, you would have to be a professional basketball player to safely and efficiently holster carry or combat draw a sidearm with more that a 5 inch barrel. Yes, one inch does make a difference because that 5 inch barrel is considering pistols not traditional 4 inch barrel revolvers. 

The 22 Rimfire Distinguished Pistol program is long over-due and should bring many side-liners to the firing line.

I realize that I will fall slightly behind the pack but I intend to continue to shoot my 1911 Hardball gun with 230 FMJ Ball ammo. Half-way there but it's a personal thing to say to myself that I did it with "Hardball", should I be fortunate enough to make the cuts.

Will miss the term "Hardball or Ball Match", I have been saying and shooting it off-and-on since the mid-70's.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by John on 12/31/2014, 11:59 am

K

"
 
Kovach---
" I still look forward to these changes.  I don't see anything here that degrades the badge in my eyes."
 
Why not shoot 1911--22 in the ball match-- 25 yards SF---two hands.  I think the current trend greatly diminishes the value of the distinguished badge. 
 
I worked at improving my scores with the hardball ammo and gun.  It took many years---lots of ball matches-- and a little luck to finally get the distinguished badge.
 
I think too many of the current Bullseye shooters do not want to put in the effort to improve.  John

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Rob Kovach on 12/31/2014, 1:02 pm

John wrote:Kovach---
" I still look forward to these changes.  I don't see anything here that degrades the badge in my eyes."
 
Why not shoot 1911--22 in the ball match-- 25 yards SF---two hands.  I think the current trend greatly diminishes the value of the distinguished badge. 
If CMP allowed .22 in the ball match, or 2 handed shooting, that would diminish the value of the badge. Don't be a jerk by changing the context of my comment.
These changes will not stop strong competitors from trying to win that leg from the next guy on the line.  In the grand scheme of things there will still only be 2 legs awarded in most matches.  Would I have liked to have earned all of my legs the old fashioned way? Sure.  I would have liked to win my legs with issued ammo also.  But that's not reality anymore.
I'm going to win legs, and if you think the guy trying to win it from me is going to hold back, you are mistaken.  It's going to be just as big a challenge as it ever was--maybe more of a challenge than in recent years because people who never bought a ball gun are going to be there now too.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by John on 12/31/2014, 1:29 pm

Kovach:  If you think shooting reloaded 185 grain bullets at 500 fps is just as difficult as the full hard ball military load perhaps you need a little more time at the range. You and a lot of other shooters like the changes
because it is  much easier to shoot higher scores. My comment just indicated the extreme  that this changing of then rules for distinguished honors can go.     John

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Rob Kovach on 12/31/2014, 1:51 pm

Look, John.  Don't make this personal.  Last warning.

Shooting 185gr softies IS easier than shooting 2014s "any safe jacketed 230gr", and "any safe jacketed 230gr" is easier than shooting TZZ hardball issued at the line.  I'm not debating that.

It's easier to shoot 9mm than it is to shoot "any safe jacketed 230gr". You don't hear me complaining about the first leathers I won behind 9mm shooters the last few years.  They outshot me and my 230gr hardball.

Even without this rule change, those 9mm guys or anybody else doesn't stand a chance against me this year.  I've been working on hardball the entire 2014 season.  I've got this whether it's hardball or 185s.

I don't make the rules.  The rules are the rules.  I'm going to excel despite the rules and the rule change because I've been working my ass off to win.  I like the change because I would love to see more than the same 5 other shooters on the line at a match and this change will make it possible for more shooters to compete.

If you don't like the rules, don't take it out on me.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by DavidR on 12/31/2014, 2:00 pm

This is old as it gets, the cmp and nra has changed rules many times over the years, all the old shooters feel cheated that new rules let in their opinion weak or lower class shooters obtain the same medals they won. Its just the way it is. every time something new comes along
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by LateBoomer on 12/31/2014, 2:13 pm

I'm new to EIC so I don't have a lot of the personal ties to the old rules that many distinguished shooters do. To me, other than the things that are directly in my control, the biggest limiting factor to earning points is lack of ND shooters at matches. Other than canton and perry, most matches I've shot at have just six competitors. With the new rules I think that will change. Additionally, I now get to chase a new badge (.22) in a field where there are no distinguished shooters. That's very exciting. Also, I now have three pistols that qualify instead of one and don't have to buy a HB specific backup. I'll need to buy some 185 bullets but that's fine.

The thing that attracted me to EIC is the lure of chasing a badge and shooting in what I consider to be the most difficult pistol marksmanship competition, period. EIC will remain that, but now more frequently, at lower cost, and with more shooters. I'm pleased.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by DeweyHales on 12/31/2014, 4:39 pm

John wrote:Kovach:  If you think shooting reloaded 185 grain bullets at 500 fps is just as difficult as the full hard ball military load perhaps you need a little more time at the range. You and a lot of other shooters like the changes
because it is  much easier to shoot higher scores. My comment just indicated the extreme  that this changing of then rules for distinguished honors can go.     John
John,

You're missing the point. Leg matches are about following the rules, and you have to beat 90% of other shooters. Those rules have always been the same. The same shooters would win no matter the rules.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by dronning on 12/31/2014, 5:01 pm

DeweyHales wrote:
John wrote:Kovach:  If you think shooting reloaded 185 grain bullets at 500 fps is just as difficult as the full hard ball military load perhaps you need a little more time at the range. You and a lot of other shooters like the changes
because it is  much easier to shoot higher scores. My comment just indicated the extreme  that this changing of then rules for distinguished honors can go.     John
John,

You're missing the point. Leg matches are about following the rules, and you have to beat 90% of other shooters. Those rules have always been the same. The same shooters would win no matter the rules.

+1
Well said!
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by KenO on 12/31/2014, 5:19 pm

I have mixed feelings on this, I think they went too far.

Many have said they didn't shoot EIC matches because they didn't want to spend an "X" amount of money on a pistol that they would only use a couple times a year. (the $ amount doesn't matter).

But, about everyone that shoots BE has a 1911 for the .45 part of the 2700.  My thought is they should have just took the restrictions off the 1911 such as a beavertail safety, and left everything else the same. Still shoot the 230 ball etc. All you would have to do is change out a spring or two, and be good to go shot a Leg match with your wadgun.

If attendance didn't pick up, they could always re-visit and try something else.

I'm fairly new, so maybe I'm off base, I'm a long time rifle shooter.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

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