Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

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Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by bmac on 5/31/2014, 9:47 am

First topic message reminder :

A wider variety of pistols classified as service pistols + more EIC matches per year.

http://www.thecmp.org/competitions/Forms/ProposedCMPPistolProgramChanges.pdf

Comment period ends July 7th.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Rob Kovach on 6/8/2014, 5:52 pm

SSgtG has all good points.
The CMP scoresheet can have blanks for 1911, M9, "other" for the non-service pistol badge, and .22 for the new Distinguished .22 badge. 
That's easier to administer than the "list of approved guns" idea, and the hardball match is preserved for the heritage.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by paulb1946 on 6/9/2014, 8:35 am

Cannot believe the CMP and the shooting community is actually entertaining some of these rules changes to the EIC Matches!

I can understand the desire to attract more participation but at what cost? 

The CMP should be commended for their efforts at increasing interest and participation in the shooting sports and they have made some amazing advances to that end. However, there are those of us competitive shooters that welcome the unique challenge offered by the rigid EIC Service Pistol and Rifle rules and continue to strive to excel in those arenas.

When a shooter proudly displays his or her Distinguished Badge it commands a degree of respect from those of us that know what it took to achieve such a level of proficiency. The dumbing-down of the EIC Distinguished Badge requirements not only diminishes the Badge itself but will also diminishes the level of respect earned by those that achieved their honor following the true "Service" definition of the rules.

The term "Service" to me denotes current G.I. (Government Issued) arms and ammunition. That being said, I do agree that the allowance of Match Conditioning does diminish from the true sense of the term "Service" but that was a U.S. Military revision and make no mistake it is their game we choose to play. 

I say let the EIC Matches continue as they have for decades and lets not dumb-down another aspect of our lives.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by DeweyHales on 6/9/2014, 4:50 pm

The matches are actually called Excellence in Competition matches.  Service Rifle and Service Pistol are just nicknames.  For rifle, the most common ammo shot on the long line won't even fit into a magazine.  I've also never seen a shooting jacket in any combat footage.  I can virtually guarantee that a National Match style Beretta has never been carried into harms way. 

Civilian medals are issued by CMP and not the military, and a good case can be made in allowing the guns that are most common in civilian hands to be eligible.  If civilians all had to qualify like the military, 99.9% of the civilians chasing the badge today would be Distinguished.  The military also allows points to be gained in Combat style matches.  If there were a similar venue for civilians, I am sure there would be more people interested in playing that game.  With the number of concealed carry holders out there, it's not a bad idea to offer something like that.        

I understand your point though.  Tradition is a huge part of the allure of these matches. 

If we don't  make some changes, evidence is mounting that civilian pistol matches will die.  We had our Regional this weekend.  We had about a dozen shooters. For the EIC matches, half the shooters were Distinguished. 

I have 28 points, but I need a hard leg.  I burned my last match of the year so that the other shooters would have a chance at a medal.  Under the current rules, the smart thing for me to have done yesterday would have been to not shoot and hope for a better attended match.  I felt that would have been wrong for me to do.  So, I shot. 

The match director at that venue also announced that he is stepping down because he needs more time to pursue a spot on the national team in a different discipline.  It is primarily a rifle club, and finding a new pistol match director will not be easy. 

Pistol as we all know it is at a crossroads.  Matches can adapt and live, or they can "continue as they have for decades" and slowly die.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Jack H on 6/9/2014, 5:53 pm

I hope they do not turn it into another Reeves Match.  Over a hundred years of tradition are involved and should be respected. 

However entry level matches following the SAFS M9 example sounds good to me for first 4, maybe up to 12 points.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Colt711 on 6/10/2014, 12:39 pm

SSgtG,
Your post should be "required reading" when the shooter considers EIC.
Some of the ideas, and they are just ideas, would hurt the sense of achivement the shooter gains the day he garners the required points.

AND everbody put their proposals on the CMP website.

Ron Habegger
 
Distinguished @ Camp Perry 1981....Before badges were numbered!?

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Vociferous on 6/10/2014, 5:25 pm

Thanks Dewey.  I hoped we would have a bigger turnout.  I want to see you metal out.  Thanks for letting me use your revolver.  Fun.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by GrumpyOldMan on 6/11/2014, 1:26 am

I think the future of the CMP really is in promoting marksmanship with defensive arms.

The "service" portion can legitimately be supplemented with a "defensive" category, perhaps separate like the NRA Match Rifle but for DCM and to encourage the Newby shooters, sticking with iron sights. Unfortunately that word might step on the toes of one Mr. Wilson down in Berryville or whatever in Clinton Country. So be it, his game got silly pretty fast anyway.

I'm in favor of EIC medals and DP awards from now on having "Service Pistol" (to include the M11 and *maybe* other types IF used by SF/SOCOM or whatever in some larger numbers...) or "Standard Pistol" appended to the end. We can't call it "Conventional Pistol". "Homeland Security Pistol" sounds too much like what that agency buys and that alone and has too many syllables and letters. "Regular Pistol" is too ordinary.

Still can't warm up to that many revolvers being allowed, though it DOES give Joe Ordinary a quick(er) and easy/(ier) route to 10-ring accuracy at 50 yards.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Mike M. on 6/21/2014, 5:46 pm

If they are going to a low ready position for .22, they should go ahead and adopt the ISSF Standard Pistol rules for the .22 match.  Maybe with a course-and-a-half of fire to retain a 900 point max score.

A closer alignment with the International events will do no harm, and possibly some good.

With regard to the broader definition of Service Pistol, most of the added guns are noncompetitive.  It's a "run what you have" concession.  People don't like to have to beg/borrow guns.  The one exception being the P210 - and I don't think that will make trigger weight.  Too light.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by GrumpyOldMan on 6/25/2014, 10:40 pm

Yeah, Dewey, I kinda got sour on Service Rifle when the chance to require even single-loaded rounds FIT in the magazine and therefore be SERVICE-compatible ammo was squandered.

Long loads are for sissies and gamers, AFAIC. Still, I plan to get out with my box-magazine 7.62 NATO Service Rifle and shame about half of the mousegun shooters some time in the next year or two.

I don't agree with the earlier post about "Service" being only the main-line issue arm, but there is some validity to allowing only what is really still being used rather than ANY somewhat experimental use of specific oddball firearms during the last decade-plus of very low-intensity warfare. The SOCOM beast-pistol, not sure it should be allowed even without the can installed. Some rational "common enough" military issue would do for my sensibilities.

DCM can expand its mission to include more marksmanship and with arms other than the various M16 variants and the M9.  M11 should be allowed for that special category of SERVICE arm.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Jack H on 6/26/2014, 3:07 am

I have been thinking on this for a while now.  And have come to favor an idea that CMP expand the present Leg Match pistol rules to include a beavertail.  And to include the semi-common Servise arms like M11.  That is all.  The beavertail would allow in a ton of otherwise excluded 45s. Oh! and relax some of the stupid reqmts like contoured front sight dovetail.

And in addition the CMP should initiate other match courses for other pistols as they have for rifle.  Meaning the Garand Match, Spfd Match etc.  Also they should stop things in rifle like drop to prone.  Some of us old arthritic guys can't do that very well anymore.  Another concept for the pistol or rifle games would be to keep an eye on making it attractive somehow for shooters without the time and dedication to perform at the highest level.  Putting the carrot so far out of reach for some makes it counter productive.


Last edited by Jack H on 6/26/2014, 3:11 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add)
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by DeweyHales on 6/26/2014, 6:31 am

Long loads are what it takes to be competitive for the vast majority of shooters. My most recent score was a 476-11x. I took second by a point and beat third by Xs. That's a similar score to shooting a 286 with a pistol. Everyone winning is a sissy and a gamer. I've been shooting service rifle matches for about four years. I've never seen a shooter get leg points with the brown gun. 
GrumpyOldMan wrote:Long loads are for sissies and gamers, AFAIC. Still, I plan to get out with my box-magazine 7.62 NATO Service Rifle and shame about half of the mousegun shooters some time 
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by GrumpyOldMan on 7/8/2014, 10:25 am

Hauled out my Dad's Garand this weekend and fired 200 and 300 sustained fire.

Remembered that when I started, Service Rifle had changed from loading from the ammo belt to loading from the mat. I still loaded from the belt as homage to the "service" element of the game, and insisting that it was an aberration of fixed-position defense, that famous WWI battle where the USMC rifles were mistaken for machine guns because the CO had ordered the riflemen to lay out their ammo belts on the parapets with all flaps open for fast reloads...

More recently, we have abandonment of the start from standing for 200 sitting and 300 prone.

Face it, the games have already changed. Service Pistol has changed the least, but there is change. Unless targets or the course of fire are changed completely, it's probably not fair to say these proposed changes make it "not Bullseye" any more.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by dronning on 7/8/2014, 12:35 pm

GrumpyOldMan wrote:....More recently, we have abandonment of the start from standing for 200 sitting and 300 prone....


When did this happen?  I thought for CMP EIC and Vintage matches we still started from standing, and just NRA matches are started in position?

-Dave
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by bmac on 7/8/2014, 12:50 pm

CMP standing, NRA in position.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by DeweyHales on 7/8/2014, 6:44 pm

Anyone have any idea when they will announce the decision?
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by dronning on 7/8/2014, 7:34 pm

DeweyHales wrote:Anyone have any idea when they will announce the decision?



c. CMP Rules Committee. The Rules Committee will meet in September

to make final decisions regarding actual rule changes.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by brassmaster on 7/15/2014, 11:11 pm

CMP's proposed changes appear as a mixed bag. The 250 min. score is a positive step. I have a friend that "legged-out" last year with a 213! And he knew beforehand that particular venue typically awarded low score legs and that's why he entered. Seems to me that it somewhat tarnishes the badge.
To wax historical, CMP Leg Matches have morphed greatly since the 70s & early 80's when the only venues for Legs were Perry, Regionals & State Championships. Distinguished shooters racked up a lot of travel miles, gasoline bills, motel & food expenses in those days chasing the badge.
And, they shot real hardball, issued at the line. White box match was the holy grail. At the end of a match, if a military armorer was dispensing ammo, just hang around until most everyone left the range and jackpot, the armorer would load you down with brown or white box military issue hardball! He did not want to transport it back and in those days no accountability was required.
So, to summarize, although CMP Leg Matches have evolved into a more accommodating pursuit, let's not dilute the process to the point of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
2014-07-16  00:09:26
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by Dr.Don on 7/16/2014, 9:05 am

Here's a perhaps funny story about hardball issued on the line (which I still favor).  In 1990 I shot a leg match as a civilian at a big Navy match in Damneck, VA.  We traveled 150 miles or so, stayed in a hotel, etc. all for a single 30 round leg match.  When we registered we were told that Navy regulations forbid them from issuing Navy ammo to civilians. So, the guys running the match had layed in a supply of some no-name brown box hardball that they issued to civilians, while the military guys got good white box match stuff.  I don't know where they got the brown box stuff, but I honestly don't think it would have grouped on a baseball hat out of anybody's gun.  It was simply terrible.  I managed a 6 point leg, but I'm not sure how.  My 50 yard slow fire went everywhere.

The next year we went back to this same leg match.  But ahead of time we prevailed on the CMP to provide the ammo for civilians, which they did.  It was a much different situation.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by brassmaster on 7/16/2014, 9:23 am

Certainly a funny story Dr. Don. Years/decades ago our CMP Affiliated state association was issued cases of "brown box" military hardball which they in turn issued to those pursuing their DP Badge. The supply seemed endless and ammo went begging. As you noted, it went bang, but was not very accurate. However, it was good for practice and getting one's rhythm down at the short line. When we went to Perry or a Regional or State Championship, we got the good stuff--white box match. Then, CMP evolved into charging $2.00 for a box of white box match for the tournament.
Then, Congress decided that CMP should become self-sufficient, thus ended issuing military hardball ammo; same went for the rifle shooters too.
Of course at that same time I got an excellent M-1 free, through the CMP program except for $48.00 shipping and handling charge out of Anniston, AL. Ah, the good ole days.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by DeweyHales on 9/22/2014, 10:24 pm

dronning wrote:
DeweyHales wrote:Anyone have any idea when they will announce the decision?



c. CMP Rules Committee. The Rules Committee will meet in September

to make final decisions regarding actual rule changes.
Any rumblings yet?
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by dronning on 9/22/2014, 10:36 pm

Just asked over on the CMP forum - no response yet.

- Dave
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by dronning on 11/10/2014, 3:09 pm

Well, just got some feedback and I'm not sure what to make of it.

This comes from CMP COO Mark Johnson over on the CMP forum:
"The changes are going to be implemented soon. The final chop is being edited now. Bring it you can shoot it. The focus is on the target and your abilities."

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?p=1185209#post1185209

- Dave
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by GrumpyOldMan on 11/10/2014, 3:56 pm

Well, that sure sounds to me like just about any gun, probably also just about any caliber, probably keeping .22 as a separate category. Personally I think the new .17 rimfires should be allowed too anyway.

Euro-guns will rule within 6 years, I fear. In .32 S&W pipsqueak. Pure precision shooting and abandon the national defense/service pistol orientation.

Hope they keep .45 as a separate class, even if it descends to wadgun only.


Last edited by GrumpyOldMan on 11/10/2014, 4:13 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Wrote targets where I meant caliber; added rimfire and .45 thoughts.)

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by jmdavis on 11/10/2014, 4:05 pm

It's just a guess but I would think that the calibers will wind up being .45, .40 and 9mm. I could be wrong obviously. But the previous rumors were that they would be opening to a larger selection of pistols and maybe adding .40 since it is becoming popular with Police Forces. 

I don't think that the .32's are much to worry about, yet.
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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

Post by robert84010 on 11/11/2014, 10:49 am

instead of buying a .32, that takes practice too, just wait it out. At some point they will redefine what marksmanship means and they will lower that standard too. Maybe they will just hand out EIC points to all that attend, since it's all about increased participation and less about achieving something unique.

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Re: Interesting changes proposed to the CMP Pistol Program

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