Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

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Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by DeweyHales on 6/9/2014, 5:06 pm

For the moment, ignore any public stigma. 

Action shooting games are the fastest growing of the shooting sports.  The military offers combat style move and shoot matches.  These emphasize reloading, different shooting postitions, moving, etc.  They are done in full gear. 

With the number of concealed carry licenses and defensively armed civilians in America, imagine a CMP event that carried points toward Distinguished that focused on a defensive handgun.  It could be a service pistol, but it could be another design entirely. 

The tournaments could be held over a period of time with "tee times" or squads for shooters to compete.  This would handle the volume of shooters.  Points toward the Distinguished badge could be earned.  But, you couldn't earn the badge only by performance in these matches alone. 

This would get shooters interested in the program by creating a feeder system.  It would have a huge pool of potential competitors.  It could grow our ranks of Service Pistol shooters as well.  It would encourage and promote civilian marksmanship.  It would also allow the current traditions of pistol EIC matches as we currently know them to remain unchanged. 

We might be able to partner with IDPA and/or USPSA to even run that portion thus freeing CMP of any public "stigma." 

Thoughts?
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by john bickar on 6/9/2014, 8:54 pm

No thanks.
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by Guest on 6/9/2014, 8:56 pm

Sorry, only interested in Bullseye.

Chip

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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by DeweyHales on 6/9/2014, 9:57 pm

It wouldn't be intended to replace bullseye. 

Shooters at the top would get points toward their Distinguished badge. From there, some might see about attending traditional EIC matches. 

Here are our options. 

1) Leave things as they are. The purists are happy, but the sport is gone in 10-15 years. 

2) "Water it down" by allowing more guns and ammo turning the game into an iron sight Wadcutter match for civilians. 

3) Give a shot at luring in some of the run and gun shooters. The top shooters at big matches get awarded leg points. If we got just a few percent of active run and gun shooters, EIC match participation would see a huge boost. 

4) Hold more service rifle and service pistol matches together with a high aggregate award. That would help bolster the pistol ranks with rifle shooters. Attendance at Perry for rifle is several times bigger than it is for pistol. The junior programs for rifle could help fill our ranks.

The CMP is looking for ideas. We've got a lot of posts on this board complaining about the ideas that have been circulated. Problem finders are not worth very much. It's problem solvers that have value. It would be great to see more people posting ideas. The ones we like, we can include in our feedback to the CMP.
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by gitkrunk on 6/9/2014, 11:02 pm

Doesn't the nra have a distinguished badge for action shooting already?
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by robert84010 on 6/9/2014, 11:15 pm

if you mean PPC Distinguished, then yes NRA has a program. it is also fading away due to low participation. it also has an accuracy element and a 50 yard line. people just want to blast away at 10 yards as fast as they can and hear the plate ring.

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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by john bickar on 6/9/2014, 11:24 pm

DeweyHales wrote:
1) Leave things as they are. The purists are happy, but the sport is gone in 10-15 years. 

How long have you been shooting bullseye?
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by DeweyHales on 6/10/2014, 6:40 am

I've been shooting EIC matches for seven years. 

Think about Perry. Add ten years to the folks there. Tell me if you think we will add more shooters than we will lose. 

Just in the time I've been shooting, I've seen remarkable drop off at bigger matches.
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by john bickar on 6/10/2014, 7:10 am

I asked that question because I have been hearing people say "bullseye will be dead in 10 or 15 years" for at least the last 25 years. And the sport is not yet ready for the cart.

It is an older demographic, true, but as competitors "age out", they are replaced by others in their 40s - 50s, finished raising the kids, a little more free time, and some disposable income. That's a pretty valuable target demographic.

I'm all for additional promotion of the sport and running more matches.

However, I don't see how changing it into something that it's not would solve anything.
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by sweetchuck on 7/26/2014, 11:23 pm

I'm 37 years old, and I have to say that this on top of the post I read this week regarding the changes to the EIC matches really has me disappointed.  From what I read previously, the idea is to turn the EIC match into an NRA centerfire match in the metallic sight division by essentially allowing various calibers and makes and models but requiring iron sights.  We already have a place to shoot that match.  If people want to shoot it, they will, if they don't, they won't.  From what I'm gathering now, you're wanting to run it as an IDPA/IPSC/bangity bangity match.  Again, we already have a place to do that.  If the CMP wants to do something different in addition to the EIC matches, I'm for it, but don't change the EIC matches into something else and even pretend that they're an EIC match (we already know that it hasn't been a hardball match for quite some time).

  I'm absolutely interested in the program the way it is, and would prefer it with the previous ammo rules.  I would love to be able to earn a distinction shared with Herschel Anderson, Brian Zins, James Clark, Gil Hebard, and so many other great shooters over the years.  None of them did it with a .40 cal, none of them did it with hand loads, and none of them did it shooting at 7 yards.

  It's the Civilian MARKSMANSHIP Program, not the Civilian SHOOTING Program.  Stop the dumbing down of America and keep some standards.  If you want to do something in addition to the EIC as we know it, that's great, but don't lower the bar by which shooters are measured.  A lump of coal and a diamond are both just carbon, which would you rather have?

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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by dronning on 7/27/2014, 5:53 am

The only way I see getting "feeders" is create a 22lr EIC badge and leave the current EIC service pistol match alone EXCEPT for the 250 minimum score for a leg being proposed so it doesn't become watered down.

The 22lr match must only be offered when a regular EIC match is being held.  This way you always make available the opportunity for the 22lr shooters to try the EIC service pistol match with a borrowed gun.

The NRA added a 22 Caliber Only 2700 Aggregate match (2014 NRA,Rule 22.1) that may also help this approach.

- Dave
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by Rob Kovach on 7/27/2014, 7:59 am

With new shooters like sweetchuck, we would be at greater risk of killing the sport in 10 years by changing it to something that's not bullseye.  Sweetchuck's post is fantastic.

No, thanks.  I tried running and gunning for a couple seasons.  No.
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by DeweyHales on 7/27/2014, 8:48 am

The idea is to copy a military combat match. 

I was just trying to see if people here were interested. 

I've seen the Combat Matches at Camp Butner. They look fun, and they are marksmanship matches. It wouldn't be intended for Bullseye shooters. It would be intended to get crossovers. 

The Combat Match would be an intermediate step to a Leg match. If held the same day, these shooters could see or even try a leg match. I think our game is enough fun to hook people after they give it a try. The question is how to get people to try it. The current paths to grow the sport are falling short. 

If we could get new folks interested, we could avoid turning EIC matches into iron sight Wadcutter matches.
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by BE Mike on 7/27/2014, 9:21 am

DeweyHales wrote:I've been shooting EIC matches for seven years. 

Think about Perry. Add ten years to the folks there. Tell me if you think we will add more shooters than we will lose. 

Just in the time I've been shooting, I've seen remarkable drop off at bigger matches.
There are many factors which have caused the attendance of bullseye pistol matches to fall off, not the least of those is the lack of the industry to supply the demand for .22 LR ammo and reloading components. I started in the sport when I was in my mid-twenties. I shot the .22 match for a long time, before I could afford centerfire. Due to work demands, I had to lay off bullseye for long periods of time. I didn't go to Perry for several years. It is pretty hard for a young family man or woman to invest in the time and money serious bullseye shooting requires. That is why so many folks don't get serious until later in life. It is also why you see the younger folks ranks heavily weighted with supported shooters, including the military. IDPA, IPSC and Action Pistol don't require the time, equipment and ammunition that bullseye requires. I think that the action type of shooting sports have enough awards and matches (far more than bullseye). I don't see how getting the CMP involved in a distinguished badge would help the action sports, nor do I see any significant amount of crossover from action to bullseye. This is coming from someone who has shot in PPC, steel challenge, IPSC, NRA Action Pistol, Metallic Silhouette, International air pistol, free pistol, standard pistol, centerfire pistol and air rifle, high powered rifle, and trap, skeet, and sporting clays. I earned my distinguished pistol shot badge under the old rules with factory hardball and a 1911. Not being talented, I worked my way up the classes in bullseye pistol from Marksman to Master. It takes a certain personality to want to participate in bullseye and like me, wanting to come back to it after tasting the other disciplines. Bullseye shooting will never attract many of the type of folks who enjoy the other shooting sports, but it seems like bullseye shooters stick to the game for the long haul, more than the others.
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by robert84010 on 7/27/2014, 9:38 am

sweetchuck wrote:I'm 37 years old, and I have to say that this on top of the post I read this week regarding the changes to the EIC matches really has me disappointed.  From what I read previously, the idea is to turn the EIC match into an NRA centerfire match in the metallic sight division by essentially allowing various calibers and makes and models but requiring iron sights.  We already have a place to shoot that match.  If people want to shoot it, they will, if they don't, they won't.  From what I'm gathering now, you're wanting to run it as an IDPA/IPSC/bangity bangity match.  Again, we already have a place to do that.  If the CMP wants to do something different in addition to the EIC matches, I'm for it, but don't change the EIC matches into something else and even pretend that they're an EIC match (we already know that it hasn't been a hardball match for quite some time).

  I'm absolutely interested in the program the way it is, and would prefer it with the previous ammo rules.  I would love to be able to earn a distinction shared with Herschel Anderson, Brian Zins, James Clark, Gil Hebard, and so many other great shooters over the years.  None of them did it with a .40 cal, none of them did it with hand loads, and none of them did it shooting at 7 yards.

  It's the Civilian MARKSMANSHIP Program, not the Civilian SHOOTING Program.  Stop the dumbing down of America and keep some standards.  If you want to do something in addition to the EIC as we know it, that's great, but don't lower the bar by which shooters are measured.  A lump of coal and a diamond are both just carbon, which would you rather have?
I hope you emailed this exactly to the CMP, otherwise you are just singing to the choir. it's nice to see enthusiasm from new shooters.

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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by sweetchuck on 7/27/2014, 1:03 pm

I'm not opposed to the CMP starting additional program, but keep it completely separate from such a great institution!  Get with clubs that shoot IDPA and have a traditional leg match after their IDPA match or something, but don't cheapen what has been THE benchmark for so many shooters for so long.  Add a program called a Defensive Pistol Competition if you want to run a bang-bang course, that's fine, but don't blur the lines.  Trap and skeet are seperate games, conventional and international pistol are separate games, IDPA and IPSC are separate games...keep EIC separate.  If you want to start something new, start something new.

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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by Jack H on 7/27/2014, 1:22 pm

I agree leave it alone.  But today the new pistol lineups do not include too many Govt design 1911 pistols.  At least CMP ought to allow beavertails and relax most of the cosmetic rules like dovetails and grip width. 
Lots more pistols would become eligible and the shooter skills would still be the deciding factor. 
I also like a minimum score.  In fact I believe there should be a scale for 6,8,10 points based on the recent Camp Perry average.  All other things being the same to leg, but if your actual EIC score falls in a gold, silver , bronze range, you get those points.  This rewards some extra to the actual good hard working shooter. 


And at the same time all sorts of pistol games matches can be made up just like there are for Spfd, Garand, Carbine, rimfire sporter rifles.
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by sweetchuck on 7/27/2014, 1:32 pm

I'm for a minimum score for leg points, because as it stands now, if I knew 6 guys interested in shooting, but not true shooters, and could lay my hands on 6 qualifying pistols and ammo, theoretically I could have myself a match, throw up a 220 and leg.  What kind of accomplishment is that?

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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by Axehandle on 7/28/2014, 9:51 am

FWIW in the early years of the military combat EIC stuff  the Army only recognized something like 14 or 16 combat leg points.  The Air Force didn"t recognize any.  I think that that has changed for both AF and Army but I've been distinguished for 30 years and retired for 19 so I'm out of that loop.

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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by GrumpyOldMan on 7/28/2014, 2:24 pm

In addition to BE, fine.

That's what the OP was wanting to discuss.

Nothing here about changing BE or even the CMP Distinguished to "not bullseye".

CMP certainly could sponsor its own "stage" suitable for both IPSC & IDPA and even NRA Action Pistol, I would recommend changing it up every 5 years, and make "Distinguished Defensive Pistol" EIC awards.  DDP.  Maybe call it "Distinguished Defensive Target" and hope it kills mosquitos? Or "Precision Combat Pistol" and confuse both the druggies and the Police shooters?

Any award based on placing in the top 10% of shooters can legitimately IMO be called "Distinguished".

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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by DavidR on 7/28/2014, 3:08 pm

First this sport has been around for many decades, yet no one has mastered it yet and shot 2700, I doubt the game will end even if someone did. Bullseye requires concentration, skill and special equipment to advance to higher levels. if you don't enjoy it as is then there are plenty of other gun sports to try. Lets leave this one as is.


Last edited by DavidR on 7/29/2014, 10:57 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by Neil308 on 7/28/2014, 6:51 pm

David, Dewey shoots  bullseyes matches all the time. he chooses to shoot service pistol in those matches. to say he is not a bullseye shooter is wrong. If he shot dots and wadcutters, he would be in master class. some of us have different goals.

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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by DavidR on 7/29/2014, 10:44 am

Thanks for the Heads up Neil,I was going off his answer when asked if he shot  bullseye and he said only EIC matches. I amended my post.
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by DeweyHales on 7/29/2014, 1:42 pm

Thanks, Neil. 



I get the feeling that many here have never seen one.  This is a portion of an EIC Combat Match. 

After an elbow injury from shooting a can of hardball in an afternoon, I took the dots off my Bullseye guns. My wobble area had gotten so big that it covered an area larger than my target.  My scores regressed.  But, slowly they are returning.  I am finally shooting Expert class scores again, but this time, I am doing it with irons.       
 
Personally, I shoot about four Bullseye matches a month during the season.  Two are outdoor, and two are indoor.  The indoor league goes year round.  The Regionals, State Championships, and Eastern Games are additional.  I've been to the All Navy matches at Quantico each of the last two years.

When I am not shooting a service pistol and hardball ammo at Bullseye matches, I am shooting Service Rifle and CMP Games Rifle matches.  I shoot one of these each per month at local clubs with EICs, Regionals, State Championships, and Eastern Games in addition.  I recently received my High Master classification using the Service Rifle in NRA High Power matches.   

I hold the position of Volunteer Assistant Coach for an NCAA Rifle team.  The day of the Newtown shooting, I was at Bragg teaching rifle marksmanship to some Paratroopers in the 82nd.  I give lots of pistol safety and marksmanship training sessions to any interested ladies from work.  When not at a match, I serve as a pistol or rifle instructor at NRA Women on Target events.   

These things are in addition to my day job in the corporate world.  I'd be hard pressed to be able to shoot more matches than I am.  If I could figure out how to get more trigger time, I'd do it.         

The reason I add this level of detail is to show that I see a lot of the shooting sports across many different venues.  Interest in shooting is really growing in most arenas.  Gun clubs in my area all have waiting lists.  Through all this growth, Service Pistol interest is waning. 

We need some type of hook or feeder.  A Combat Match style event is the least gear intensive event I can imagine.  There is no intimidation for a new shooter because they don't have a box, spotting scope, etc.  I suggested this style of match because of the high potential for crossover appeal. 

I'm a rifle shooter by talent and a pistol shooter by passion.  I love the tradition of Bullseye and Service Pistol, and I want it to continue.  As shooters in other disciplines age, they may continue to find Bullseye as they have for the past few decades.  But, Service Pistol favors a younger set of eyes.  It would be great to get some of these younger shooters now.  If we could grow the number of dedicated shooters on the line, scores would go back to a level where there would be no reason to worry about a cut score.
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by sweetchuck on 7/29/2014, 3:30 pm

I'm sorry, but I've gotta say that I AM your target audience here.  37 years old, daughter is in high school, things are more stable around the house, got a few bucks to spend on toys and entertainment.  My wife is starting to take a little interest, and there's a co-worker I've been bringing to the range who seems to be enjoying his introduction. 

   There is a 2700 and an EIC match at the local club coming up in August, and I really think you need to know that I was planning on shooting both matches, but am honestly and truly leaning toward just shooting the 2700 now.  You've essentially asked if we, as bullseye shooters, are interested in tying this in with the EIC program as we know it.  I think that if you read the responses you've received the first two times you posed the question to us, the answer would be a resounding no.  If the CMP were to decide to ignore the feedback that I've seen on this issue, I honestly believe that in order to increase their numbers on the firing line they would not only have to recruit additional shooters, they would have to replace the shooters that they've run off. 

  To me, this idea is akin to playing a season of baseball to determine who goes to the Super Bowl.  They're two different sports, but they're both played with a ball.  They don't play gin at the World Series of Poker, they don't shoot skeet at the Grand, and they don't putt through a windmill at the Masters.   Why would we shoot at IDPA targets at a bullseye match?

  If it's a service pistol bullseye match, shoot service pistols at a bullseye the way it was meant to be from day one or don't shoot it at all.

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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

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