Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

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Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by DeweyHales on 6/9/2014, 5:06 pm

First topic message reminder :

For the moment, ignore any public stigma. 

Action shooting games are the fastest growing of the shooting sports.  The military offers combat style move and shoot matches.  These emphasize reloading, different shooting postitions, moving, etc.  They are done in full gear. 

With the number of concealed carry licenses and defensively armed civilians in America, imagine a CMP event that carried points toward Distinguished that focused on a defensive handgun.  It could be a service pistol, but it could be another design entirely. 

The tournaments could be held over a period of time with "tee times" or squads for shooters to compete.  This would handle the volume of shooters.  Points toward the Distinguished badge could be earned.  But, you couldn't earn the badge only by performance in these matches alone. 

This would get shooters interested in the program by creating a feeder system.  It would have a huge pool of potential competitors.  It could grow our ranks of Service Pistol shooters as well.  It would encourage and promote civilian marksmanship.  It would also allow the current traditions of pistol EIC matches as we currently know them to remain unchanged. 

We might be able to partner with IDPA and/or USPSA to even run that portion thus freeing CMP of any public "stigma." 

Thoughts?
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by Toz35m on 7/29/2014, 5:47 pm

Jack H wrote: In fact I believe there should be a scale for 6,8,10 points based on the recent Camp Perry average.  All other things being the same to leg, but if your actual EIC score falls in a gold, silver , bronze range, you get those points.  This rewards some extra to the actual good hard working shooter. 

John,

I think this is a great idea.  If you shoot a 290 and but there were only 8 people at the match you could get 10 points and not 6.  I know people who have more than enough points but need a match with enough warm bodies to fill the line up more.
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by LongSlide on 7/29/2014, 6:20 pm

So the goal here is to attract new shooters without compromising the integrity and meaning of the achievement. 

It seems that those who would shoot the EIC matches but don't are caused by them not having the equipment or don't have the opportunity to compete locally.  Those that don't want to shoot the matches because the matches themselves are not interesting or exciting are lost causes; you will not attract them with equipment changes or increased opportunities..

Stating the obvious (sorry) I can see two things to try:
  * increase the number of available matches over a larger geographic area
  * and rule changes for equipment.

The first will come as interest grows, but the second is problematic.  I mean, what changes would YOU accept to equipment rules and still feel the the achievement was not tarnished?  Would a beaver tail be tarnishing?  Or an extended thumb safety?

I have a range officer and I've been putting off changing the grip safety and thumb safety since there are not local EIC matches.  I've been going back and forth on whether it would be a good wad gun or service pistol.  I would like to do EIC and get a distinguished pistol badge, but why mess up a wad gun if there are no local matches?

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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by Jack H on 7/29/2014, 6:36 pm

Toz35m wrote:
Jack H wrote: In fact I believe there should be a scale for 6,8,10 points based on the recent Camp Perry average.  All other things being the same to leg, but if your actual EIC score falls in a gold, silver , bronze range, you get those points.  This rewards some extra to the actual good hard working shooter. 

John,

I think this is a great idea.  If you shoot a 290 and but there were only 8 people at the match you could get 10 points and not 6.  I know people who have more than enough points but need a match with enough warm bodies to fill the line up more.


And at the same time, I think giving 10 pointers to all gold, silver, bronze qualifiers is wrong wrong wrong.  Ten points for a 250 score is not right.  You should get the points your score rates even at Perry.  My opinion.
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by sweetchuck on 7/29/2014, 8:32 pm

I think one of the big things that being Distinguished shows about a shooter is the tough road he took to get there.  Not only did he have to find a match, he had to go 300 miles to shoot in the thing just for the chance to leg.  Then, they had to shoot their butt off because the other guys there had the dedication to do the same.  That's what I see when I see a guy with a Distinguished badge- not just a guy who's good with a pistol, but a guy who put in the time and effort to make it all work.  There's a lot of guys who can go to the range and shoot a 270-280 with an iron sighted 1911 with ball ammo- especially when hand loaded.  There's not a lot of guys willing to put in the effort, the days off work, missing the weekend with the kid, not going to the cousin's wedding, etc. etc.  Shooting the scores isn't always the hardest part, but it's by no means easy.  I just think it speaks alot to the dedication these guys have to our sport, and their will to succeed. I've known some damn good shooters that I've seen put up the scores time and again who never went to Perry because of work, or took the vacation with their wives instead, or what have you....Doesn't make them a lesser shooter than the guy with the badge, but it makes them less dedicated, and not Distinguished.  I enjoy bullseye because it's hard, not in spite of it being hard.  If I can shoot in an EIC every weekend during the summer and come up with 30 points, it doesn't mean nearly as much to me as if I fought to get to 5 matches and legged in 3 to make it.

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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by GrumpyOldMan on 7/29/2014, 11:49 pm

Thanks, Dewey, for showing us part of what the military currently does with Combat EIC matches.

Looks a lot like PPC but with transitions to a second target after every reload.

The skill-building rational of required reloads and not using the entire magazine is consistent with how Service Rifle has been run since the Garand arrived. I still think they should have shortened the "RF" (to me, sustained fire is more of a true description) time limits for sitting and prone 300, but then again they went to the smaller scoring rings on the decimal target in the early 60s.

Now for the dummies here, IT'S NOT BULLSEYE AND DEWEY NEVER SUGGESTED REPLACING BULLSEYE WITH THIS. I say the CMP should add this to its offerings, with a more restrictive guns list than the currently proposed changes discussed elsewhere. The .44 Mags adopted by the Upper Elbonian army in 1985 just aren't "service" pistol enough for me.

But I'm used to having my guys/gals lose in the elections, too. 

Give it five years of being offered before BE EIC matches and see what happens. Even if it doesn't "feed" significant numbers into BE, it's a worthy activity consistent with the CMP's mission AFAIC. But if it doesn't catch on, dump it.

I'll shut up for now.

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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by Colt711 on 7/30/2014, 3:24 pm

There are a number of good ideas in this thread, .22 matches used as an introduction to new shooters, loosening of "minor" rules such as beavertails, and extended safeties, minimum scores and or adjustment of points for the size of matches, are all good but the basic idea of introducing other styles of shooting into EIC pistol just does not make sense.

I am not trying to cast aspersions on the other disciplines, nor denigrate the individual posing the idea. In fact I credit them for caring and giving thought to improvement.

If we are looking to the action matches as a feeder let's offer the winners, or those above a "cutoff" a ticket, credit, or coupon which pays his entry into a ball match at a Regional or Perry.

We should be promoting the challenges and rewards mentioned several times in this thread. Maybe if shooters see how this sport has gotten in our blood they will want to experience it.

BE has had it's ups & downs in attendance, especially @ Perry. In the early & mid 60's entry fee's were low, EIC ammo & pistols were furnished. '68 saw the GCA, an increases in entry $$ and less military support. Entry numbers decreased.  In the 70's NRA made an effort to cut entry fee's. Slowly Perry shooters increased to 1100+.

Somwhere in the 90's entry fees were upped dramatically. Rimfire prices increased,  there were primer shortages and their prices went up. Same with bullets. EIC stopped furnishing ammo and also increased fees. Now rimfire nearly does not exist, and good jobs are almost as bad. Perhaps we're doing better than we think and should start acting like it. Get some shooters to come to the range and try it. A few will stick.

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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by Ghillieman on 7/31/2014, 3:20 am

Jack H wrote:I agree leave it alone.  But today the new pistol lineups do not include too many Govt design 1911 pistols.  At least CMP ought to allow beavertails and relax most of the cosmetic rules like dovetails and grip width. 
Lots more pistols would become eligible and the shooter skills would still be the deciding factor. 
I also like a minimum score.  In fact I believe there should be a scale for 6,8,10 points based on the recent Camp Perry average.  All other things being the same to leg, but if your actual EIC score falls in a gold, silver , bronze range, you get those points.  This rewards some extra to the actual good hard working shooter. 


And at the same time all sorts of pistol games matches can be made up just like there are for Spfd, Garand, Carbine, rimfire sporter rifles.

YES, I completely agree!!!
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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

Post by GrumpyOldMan on 8/1/2014, 2:33 pm

"If we are looking to the action matches as a feeder let's offer the winners, or those above a "cutoff" a ticket, credit, or coupon which pays his entry into a ball match at a Regional or Perry."

One of the best ideas I've heard in a very long time.

I'm concluding that *part* of the declining numbers problem is "points of distribution". Local clubs with turning target setups are kinda rare, so that "plus" of driving miles and miles to find a match is IMO bordering on snobbish elitism. Let the elitism be ONLY on the PERFORMANCE, where it rightfully belongs, and stop feeding the petro-terrorists with all those highway miles traveled.

Don't know how often the clubs with turning targets are running club stuff, whether a member can just show up and practice solo, or what. But it's pretty hard to convince a newby that doing this *because it's hard* is something he or she likes if it's a major road trip to even try it out.

We need to snag the people where they live. In the 300 road mile radius around Las Vegas, I know my Dad used to shoot BE at something like 4 different ranges. None of them do it now, some don't even exist any more.  And the several commercial ranges opening in recent years in Las Vegas are almost all short-range expensive hourly joints focusing on 7-yard paper target blasters.

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Re: Civilian Version of Move and Shoot Military Combat EIC Matches

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