On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

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On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by beeser on Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:21 pm

Just a thought ...  Is there any downside to practicing with my S&W 39-2, 9mm instead of the .45?  You guys have already zeroed in on my problem with the .45 in that I'm anticipating the recoil and reacting in advance to it, a problem that I apparently don't have with the .22.  So, I was thinking that since the 9mm recoils almost as much that I could use that instead considering the ammo is so much cheaper.  I haven't started reloading yet (still can't find the powder) so the .45 is getting a little expensive to shoot.

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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by Guest on Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:27 pm

I would spend the time dry firing your 45.  Grip, etc. on your 9mm probably does not match your 45 so I am not sure how much that will help you.

Chip

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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by LenV on Sun Jul 13, 2014 6:35 pm

I shoot my 39 all the time. Only because I use it for concealed carry. The trigger pull is heavy and although the accuracy is fairly good it is by no means a bullseye pistol. I did some research and the pistol doesn't have any after market stuff to make it shoot straighter. Trigger time is trigger time but it is kind of nice when the shots go where you call them. The heavier trigger might create some problems in the future but they are always fun to shoot. I see you have a model 52 coming. The grip and feel of this pistol is the same and would prepare you for the feel of your new one.

Len
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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by beeser on Sun Jul 13, 2014 7:17 pm

I'm working on the dry firing with weights around my wrist routine at home.  I forgot about the hard pull on the 39.  Maybe that would mess me up.  But if I understand correctly one of the things that needs to be corrected is the recoil anticipation.  You guys convinced of that earlier.  The only way I know to get rid of it is to concentrate on not reacting to the recoil in advance, which probably requires me to get use to the recoil.  In other words, shoot more often.

Yes, the 52 is on the way and that's going to add a different dimension to my practice.  I've been told that the recoil is very minimal.  Do you think that will help with my .45?

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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by Vociferous on Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:45 pm

Dry firing with a red dot will correct the anticipation problem.  The dot will leave no question if the gun is moving before, during, or after working the trigger.  First, accept that you (or anyone else for that matter), can't keep the gun perfectly still for an extended period of time.  When aiming, you're trying to keep the red dot in the black center of the target.  Likely, it is moving through and around the black, and sometimes perfectly centered.  This is your "wobble zone" or arc of movement.  During your arc of movement, you are applying pressure to the trigger.  When the trigger breaks, notice how the dot moves; do it correctly, and the dot won't move any more than your normal hold, or arc of movement.  If you anticipate or jerk the trigger in any way, you will get instant feedback.  During dry firing, you know there will be no recoil.  Work on being able to break the shot so after the trigger breaks, your dot is in the same place, or within your current wobble zone.  It's more important that you get the shot to break without moving the dot, then getting the dot perfectly centered in the black, then trying the break the shot.  When you get back on the range for live fire, think and do the same things you did for dry fire.   
Absolutely, the best advice is to see, listen to, ask questions of, and participate in matches with, experienced shooters.  If you have a 1911 or single action with a red dot on it, dry fire with that, and get to matches with your 22.  You can shoot entire matches with just the 22, and some people would suggest you shoot just your 22 for the first year.  Hope this helps. 
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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:45 pm

beeser wrote:The only way I know to get rid of it is to concentrate on not reacting to the recoil in advance, which probably requires me to get use to the recoil.  In other words, shoot more often.
Like Phil said, dry firing in front of a target or a properly scaled black dot on your wall while watching your sights to make sure they don't move when the hammer falls is VERY effective training and very cheap.
Every time you repeat a dry-firing session, it imprints good trigger control in your brain, and imprints that recoil isn't a problem for you.  When you do go to the range, I recommend "ball and dummy" practice.  Get some of those snap caps and have a friend load your magazines with a mixture of live and dummy rounds.  When the hammer falls on the dummy rounds--but your sights stay still then you are getting over your anticipation of recoil.

good luck,
-Rob
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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by BE Mike on Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:29 am

Having been one who shot a S&W model 52 (same frame as 39) for many years, I am of the opinion that you would be better off concentrating on the 1911. As has been stated, dry firing helps, especially in slow fire. It seems like you may not have started reloading. If that is the case, you should start saving up for some reloading equipment to load .45 ACP cartridges.
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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by beeser on Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:56 am

BE Mike wrote:Having been one who shot a S&W model 52 (same frame as 39) for many years, I am of the opinion that you would be better off concentrating on the 1911. As has been stated, dry firing helps, especially in slow fire. It seems like you may not have started reloading. If that is the case, you should start saving up for some reloading equipment to load .45 ACP cartridges.
I've been saving my brass from practically the beginning.  I was all set to buy a Dillon press a few weeks ago but one of our local gunshops with machines in stock strongly suggested not to bother until powder is available.  So, I'm ready to go on that front.  When I can get a pound of Winchester 231, HP-038 or Unique (safe powders suggested to me) that's when I'll purchase the rest of the stuff.

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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by BE Mike on Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:11 am

I don't know where you live, but you should be able to get some gunpowder that would allow you to load target .45 ACP rounds. Besides, Bullseye, Winchester 231 (HP-38) there are many other brands that are suitable. Some that come to mind are Titegroup, Red Dot, American Select, Solo 1000, Clays, Green Dot, Vihtavouri 310, a light charge (3.6 grains) of e3, 700X and the list goes on and on.
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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by beeser on Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:04 am

BE Mike wrote:I don't know where you live, but you should be able to get some gunpowder that would allow you to load target .45 ACP rounds. Besides, Bullseye, Winchester 231 (HP-38) there are many other brands that are suitable. Some that come to mind are Titegroup, Red Dot, American Select, Solo 1000, Clays, Green Dot, Vihtavouri 310, a light charge (3.6 grains) of e3, 700X and the list goes on and on.
I've heard that a number of times but when I go to where it's supposedly available none exists.  I have my name listed at a number of places in Kingman, AZ to be notified when powder is available but I haven't heard from anybody yet.  I'm beginning to think that there's more to this powder shortage than I currently understand.  Which reminds me .....

This probably should be an entirely different thread but while it's on my mind, this ammo/powder shortage situation has been very discouraging to me as a new shooter to the point that sometimes I think why bother.  The first gun that I purchased was a .22lr.  When I tried to purchase ammo for the first time at a local sporting goods store it was not available.  I soon learned afterwards about the ammo shortage in general.  To eliminate the hassle of running around locally looking for ammo I've been purchasing what I want (careful not to use the word need) online.  I stopped by recently and for the first time at a Bass Pro Shop in Las Vegas after dropping my wife off at the airport.  I just wanted to look around and see what shooting supplies were available.  That's when I noticed a line of customers at the gun counter being dispensed two measly boxes of .22lr per customer and being treated shamefully by indifferent sales staff.  While looking at handguns a salesman asked how many boxes I wanted.  I replied that I was just looking at the guns.  His attitude immediately turned full circle to polite and I responded by saying "none" and immediately left.  Frankly, I was so mad that I had to write a letter to BPS instead of speaking to the store manager that day describing the indignity imposed on customers by their sales staff.  I did receive a return letter from their corporate office and a phone call from the store manager but the whole experience still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  This ammo/shooting supplies shortage situation is very off-putting and has not brought out the best in people.  So far I've seen greed, stupidity, bad manners, bad judgement and bad behavior in general with respect to it.  I really like the challenge of getting a little lead ball directed to an x mark but I'm not so inclined to put up with the distractions described above.  I can find better things to do with my valuable time.  And please, spare me the political/social/racial reasons for the ammo shortage.  I'm not interested.

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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by BE Mike on Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:04 am

I understand your feelings. We shooters are sometimes our own worst enemies. The hoarders and speculators are the ones who have made this latest (long) round the worst in my memory. When I started out (the dark ages) there weren't any ammo or powder shortages, but I personally had severe money shortages. I constantly looked for good deals and saved my money so I could shoot. One characteristic of bullseye pistol shooters is that they don't shy away from challenges. They seem to have a dogged determination and aren't easily dissuaded by adversity.
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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by DavidR on Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:07 am

If shooting a model 39 well is your goal, then practice with it, if shooting a 45 well is the goal, shoot it or as a alternative you could do a cheap 1911 style 22 and set the trigger pull to be the same as your 45, 3.5 in a bullseye gun.
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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by beeser on Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:02 pm

I really think you guys had it right before when it was mentioned that recoil anticipation is what's throwing my shots off.  I just got back from the range after practicing .22lr and as planned, the 9mm 39.  I'm definitely getting better with the Pardini .22lr.  The groups are more consistently within a 4"-6" diameter with at least a couple of bullseyes in 10 shots.  The 9mm was definitely better than my .45 performance from late last week.  I had a situation today where the magazine was not fully seated and when I tried to fire the gun I found myself jerking the gun downward, apparently in anticipation of the recoil.  After that and concentrating on holding the gun steady the shots started to improve.  Again, I think you guys were correct about the anticipation.  I bet that I'm doing it even with the .22lr albeit to a lesser degree.  BTW,   I'm now shooting at 25 yds instead of 20 yds., one handed and both eyes open.  Progress!

PS  I apologize to everyone that read my earlier rant in this thread.  There was no productive reason for it being made here.  Again, I'm sorry.

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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by beeser on Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:06 pm

I forgot to mention that my new to me S&W 52 is supposed to arrive today.  That addition should provide an interesting mix to my training.  Unfortunately, we will be going out of town for a while so I won't be able to fire it until returning.

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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by LenV on Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:10 pm

There is powder out there. Gunbroker has everything your looking for.It is terribly expensive. You could pick up 5lbs of bullseye for 250.00-300.00. That's over 3 times Bi-mart price when they have it in stock. BUT...they don't have it in stock. Doing the math that still makes the powder the least expensive component of the reloaded bullet. Five lbs is 35000 gr. With an average load of 4 gr you can reload 8750 bullets at a cost per bullet of .034. That's still worth doing.Does paying that much suck? Yep. But sometimes you just have to bite the bullet Mad


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=428894620



Shipping really sucks on 1 lbs

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=429167532
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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by beeser on Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:19 pm

Good point.  I'm already paying exorbitant prices for ammo anyway and shipping is almost as expensive.  Maybe I should bite the bullet as you say and go this route.  I was advised or it was strongly suggested not to use Bullseye as a beginning reloader.  Apparently the Winchester 231, HP-38 and Unique mentioned before are more forgiving or better suited.  Any opinions on that?  I have to stop by my local gunshop tomorrow to pick up the S&W 52.  If they still don't have powder yet again I might put a bid on that Bullseye depending on what you guys say.  Also, the machine that I thought of purchasing is Dillon 550 or 650.  Any thoughts on these two units?  The fact that Dillon is somewhat local is a plus to me.

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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by LenV on Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:46 pm

Probably should post that as a question under " Ammunition "
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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by DavidR on Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:47 pm

the only way to progress in bullseye price and accuracy wise is to learn to reload your own. im sure if you were shooting a tested bullseye load you would find it has less recoil than the 9mm your shooting now and you can reload for a fraction of retail ammo even at todays higher prices.
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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by BE Mike on Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:57 pm

Bullseye powder is small in size and it doesn't even come close to filling the case when loading target loads. As long as you are careful and don't double charge a case, you'll be fine. I loaded my first rounds ever (.38 SPL), decades ago using Bullseye and have gone through a lot of it without incident. Reloading requires attention to detail and focus. If you can do that then using Bullseye powder won't be a problem. BTW, I'm not really favorably impressed with the advice you are getting from your local gunshop.
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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by beeser on Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:02 pm

BE Mike wrote:Bullseye powder is small in size and it doesn't even come close to filling the case when loading target loads. As long as you are careful and don't double charge a case, you'll be fine. I loaded my first rounds ever (.38 SPL), decades ago using Bullseye and have gone through a lot of it without incident. Reloading requires attention to detail and focus. If you can do that then using Bullseye powder won't be a problem. BTW, I'm not really favorably impressed with the advice you are getting from your local gunshop.
Maybe I shouldn't be impressed either.  But at first blush I thought the comment was refreshing considering it was coming from a retailer who had something in stock to sell.  I still can't think of any ulterior reason for their position.  Can anyone?

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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by rvlvrlvr on Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:09 pm

beeser wrote:Good point.  I'm already paying exorbitant prices for ammo anyway and shipping is almost as expensive.  Maybe I should bite the bullet as you say and go this route.  I was advised or it was strongly suggested not to use Bullseye as a beginning reloader.  Apparently the Winchester 231, HP-38 and Unique mentioned before are more forgiving or better suited.  Any opinions on that?  I have to stop by my local gunshop tomorrow to pick up the S&W 52.  If they still don't have powder yet again I might put a bid on that Bullseye depending on what you guys say.  Also, the machine that I thought of purchasing is Dillon 550 or 650.  Any thoughts on these two units?  The fact that Dillon is somewhat local is a plus to me.

Alliant Bullseye is fine to learn to reload with; there are a couple well-known loads for Bullseye in .38 Wadcutter loads (2.7-2.8gr Bullseye beneath a 148gr hollow-base wadcutter seated flush with the case mouth and with a light roll crimp). W231 (same as HP-38; different name) is also a good powder for .38 WC loads -- and I prefer this for my own Model 52 (3.1gr W231). I've never used Unique in .38 WC loads, but I'm sure it has been done (I'd assume since it's a slower powder that a higher charge would be needed). I've also used Accurate Arms No. 2 powder with good results (2.8gr).

Dillon 550 is manual-index (you'd have to advance the shellplate manually), the 650 is auto-index (the shellplate advances automatically). There are probably other differences; I don't know much about Dillon machines. You could do well to learn on a single-stage press, too -- I loaded my ammo on an RCBS RockChucker II single-stage for years before I picked up a Hornady LNL AP progressive.
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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by mspingeld on Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:04 pm

This article, Press comparison, is what helped me decide on the Hornady LNL.

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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by Vociferous on Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:22 pm

http://www.brianenos.com/store/dillon.ez.550.html

The easiest way to buy.
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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by BE Mike on Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:34 pm

beeser wrote:
BE Mike wrote:Bullseye powder is small in size and it doesn't even come close to filling the case when loading target loads. As long as you are careful and don't double charge a case, you'll be fine. I loaded my first rounds ever (.38 SPL), decades ago using Bullseye and have gone through a lot of it without incident. Reloading requires attention to detail and focus. If you can do that then using Bullseye powder won't be a problem. BTW, I'm not really favorably impressed with the advice you are getting from your local gunshop.
Maybe I shouldn't be impressed either.  But at first blush I thought the comment was refreshing considering it was coming from a retailer who had something in stock to sell.  I still can't think of any ulterior reason for their position.  Can anyone?
I don't think that he has an ulterior motive. I just think that he is not giving out the best information.
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Re: On Practicing - Using a 9mm?

Post by Rob Kovach on Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:53 pm

Beeser,
Even when people give you differing opinions, don't assume there is an "ulterior motive" or that one of them is "wrong or right".

There is more than one way to skin a cat--no matter which method is used the cat is still skinned.

There are a million recipes for bullseye match loads--both for .38spl and .45.  Whatever works best for you is fine.

Most people give you what they have found to be best for them.  I wouldn't over analyze the advice you get.  Go shoot and have fun.
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