Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

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Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

Post by beeser on Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:09 am

The Pardini SP that I have came with an Aimpoint red dot sight.  I used the gun initially without the red dot thinking that it was better that way starting out.  Besides, the battery was dead and I had a hard time finding one.  Anyway, after finally getting the Aimpoint to work I tried it out on the gun and quickly found my accuracy improving.  I was hooked.  It was so much easier to line up on the target without having to align a rear and front sight.  Then during my last practice session the battery died (left it turned on) and I was forced to remove the red dot and go back to the stock sights.  Needless to say my accuracy fell off, especially at 50 yds.  So, after a long winded lead up, should I continue with the red dot or open steel sights or something else entirely?  I was so pleased with the red dot after using one that I began thinking of putting one on my 1911 and asked a question about that earlier.  Apparently a 1911 presents a little more challenge in mounting.

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Re: Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

Post by DavidR on Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:25 am

red dots are the way to go if you want to compete in bullseye, many shoot irons if working on a distinguished badge but that's a different game.

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Re: Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

Post by rvlvrlvr on Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:54 pm

I think I read somewhere that shooting a red dot helps to train your eye to see the wobble, and eventually your arm to reduce (though not eliminate) the wobble, which helps you shoot tighter groups with everything (including iron sights). I think it was Brian Zins that said it, even. I'm convinced of it, anyways, as that's how I've trained and practiced -- red dots nearly all the time, and iron sights when training/practicing for specific matches.

Now I'm shooting iron sights for my Hämmerli SP20 and my Ruger Mk.II and my S&W Model 52 (I don't have red-dots mounted) in practice and I'm doing pretty well with them (Master and High-Master scores). I guess I'm now reaping the benefits of several years of red-dot training.

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Re: Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

Post by DeweyHales on Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:48 pm

The Marines have their new guys shooting irons still.  They progress faster than anyone I know. 

If you want to go Distinguished, stick with irons.  If not, shoot a dot.

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Re: Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

Post by rvlvrlvr on Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:19 pm

DeweyHales wrote:The Marines have their new guys shooting irons still.  They progress faster than anyone I know. 

If you want to go Distinguished, stick with irons.  If not, shoot a dot.

Isn't their job to produce piles of spent brass and small shot groups? If that were my job -- if I did nothing but shoot all day (which would be heaven) -- I'm not sure it would matter what sighting system I chose. I "went Distinguished" in six or seven matches with both the CMP-EIC/1911 and NRA/Distinguished Revolver (there were enough non-distinguished shooters at most matches I attended to award two legs; I think there was one match with each gun where I missed the cut-off, and of course there was the three-EIC-matches-per-year limit, and I had to shop around to find a local match big enough for a Hard Leg for CMP/EIC - the New Jersey State Championships in 2010). For both of them, my highest score (and leg-out score) was 285-something...practicing primarily with red-dots, going from Marksman to Master in about three years (shooting red-dot'ed revolvers probably held me back a bit).

Of course, I was shooting a lot back then - visiting the range at least four times a week - so I don't think I can really know what effect using irons-only would have had on my shooting.

beeser, from all of your other posts, it sounds like you're really just (seriously) getting into Bullseye. I'd say to go with the iron sights, since it sounded like in the other thread where you're looking at getting the Springfield Range Officer, you're "not yet ready" to put a red-dot on it...

beeser wrote:You're right inthebeech, I'm not ready to go ugly yet on some of the 1911s mentioned.

...so stick with the irons on your .22 (and your Model 52), which ought to help your .45 scores.

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Re: Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

Post by beeser on Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:56 pm

Thanks again rvlvrlvr and others!  The comment about the red dot helping to deal with the wobble makes sense at least for me because you can easily identify it.  The term never registered with me with the iron sights.  As for the RO, it was suggested to me many times but I have no desire to get one.  And the "I'm not ready to go ugly" comment meant that some guns just don't have any visual appeal to me regardless whether they're recognized as good shooters.  I believe the Kimber is what was on my mind at that moment.  Again, I'm not out to achieve some recognized classification as some of you have earned, at least not yet.  I'll definitely not put a red dot on the 52 but to me one on the Pardini seems like a good fit, aesthetically.  I'm still on the fence with the 1911, which is probably one of the reasons why I was searching for an alternative for the .45.

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Re: Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

Post by DavidR on Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:12 pm

military shooters progress fast cause that's their job to shoot,also helps that they have great equipment to use and plenty of ammo. all of us could move fast if we were required to shoot every day.

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Re: Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

Post by sweetchuck on Tue Jul 29, 2014 5:17 pm

Give it a whirl- you've already got it! If you don't like it, take it off!  I shoot irons and dots in practice, but dots in matches

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Re: Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

Post by davekp on Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:10 am

DavidR wrote:military shooters progress fast cause that's their job to shoot,also helps that they have great equipment to use and plenty of ammo. all of us could move fast if we were required to shoot every day.

And great coaches!

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Re: Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

Post by bdutton on Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:04 am

I was trained to start shooting with iron sights.  This minimizes the 'perceived' wobble.  Shooting with a dot the wobble is obvious and distracting.

My advice is shoot iron sights until you shoot sharpshooter or higher scores.

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Re: Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

Post by BE Mike on Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:32 am

DavidR wrote:military shooters progress fast cause that's their job to shoot,also helps that they have great equipment to use and plenty of ammo. all of us could move fast if we were required to shoot every day.
To add to what you say, another big factor is that they get great coaching from the git go. They also train in a pressure cooker, i.e. under match conditions. They must earn their way onto the team. The ax is always looming over their heads if they don't perform.

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Re: Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

Post by inthebeech on Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:44 am

"...seems like a good fit, aesthetically."

This is better than binge-watching old episodes of Lost.
Sorry guys about the sarcasm.  This is too rich.

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Re: Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

Post by Larry Lang on Wed Jul 30, 2014 11:02 am

inthebeech wrote:This is better than binge-watching old episodes of Lost.
Sorry guys about the sarcasm.  This is too rich.
 

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Re: Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

Post by beeser on Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:33 pm

Larry Lang wrote:
inthebeech wrote:This is better than binge-watching old episodes of Lost.
Sorry guys about the sarcasm.  This is too rich.
 
... to the aesthetically challenged.

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Re: Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

Post by CR10X on Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:49 pm

I would suggest you put some serious time, dry fring and shooting, with both.  There are things that open sights tell us about how we are completing the trigger press that just gets lost with a dot.  With a dot, we can train on focusing on just one thing while it is moving around which will translate back to being more comfortable with focusing on the the front sight and not let the wobble interfer with the trigger.  (And and whole bunch of other things that will eventually be seen and understood if we just get rid of that blink and see what is actually happening in the present).

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Re: Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

Post by Jack H on Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:10 pm

I think training with irons you are working the wrist and forearm at the subconscious level.  With dot, the shoulder and arm are more likely to be the guided muscles.

You really must understand both.

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Re: Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

Post by Sa-tevp on Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:45 pm

In the CMP book "Advanced Pistol Guide" prepared by the AMU, under "Electronic Shooting Devices" it recommends that new shooters or struggling shooters in the mid expert level stay with iron sights until mastering the application of the fundamentals.


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Re: Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

Post by knightimac on Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:31 am

Hi Beeser

Congrats on your Pardini.  Pardinis dominate the line in international 25M rapid fire.

Shoot your Pardini with the Aimpoint and keep fresh batteries on hand.  That gun and red dot are some of the best of the best.  Give this setup a long and protracted evaluation and keep records/data of your shooting.

Don't mess with your other guns until you are 100% convinced after 6 months of shooting that dots are the way you want to go for YOU.

Happy shooting.

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Re: Should I - Red dot or open steel sights or?

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