slow fire how long do you line up the shot

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slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by orpheoet on Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:48 pm

I'm typically in the high 60's low 70's with .45(better with .22). I seem to do much better if I take my shot with a timed fire type pace then put the gun down and regrip. So my question is how long do you all line up the shot before you fire and at what point do start the shot over(the hardest thing for me) Thanks

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by farmboy on Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:53 pm

When you say TF pace do you mean 5 shots in 20 seconds before you put the gun down or one shot off quickly?

There is a lot going on with SF accuracy- proper trigger control, sight alignment, proper trigger control, grip, proper trigger control, breathing, proper trigger control accepting the movement and getting off the shot within the time frame of min wobble before holding to long increases the wobble area, proper trigger control ect.  I would recommend a lot of dry fire maintaining the same sight picture through the break of the trigger.  Work on finger placement on the trigger and putting constant rearward  pressure on the trigger with correct firm grip pressure.  

I made my quickest improvements by drying firing and getting trigger control down( still working on trigger control)
When I started out I heard and read the top shooters comments about trigger control being very important. As a newbie it seemed important but not all that important because of all the other things in the shot process.  However, I found once my trigger control came around my ability to call shots accurately developed and the other things started to fall into place.  There not all in place but much better than they were.

For me trying to get better with out good trigger control is like trying to run before you can walk especially with the .45


Last edited by farmboy on Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:54 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : grammer)

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:56 pm

Do you have a written shot process yet?  If not, you need one.

orpheoet wrote:I seem to do much better if I take my shot with a timed fire type pace then put the gun down and regrip.
So you put the gun down after 5 shots and regrip?  Don't do that.  If you mean you pretend you are hearing the range commands like "ready on the left--raise gun.....ready on the firing line--settle sights on target....one-two-three--break" then I wouldn't call that a "timed fire pace", I would call that a part of your "shot process".

how long do you all line up the shot before you fire and at what point do start the shot over
When you are using your written shot process, you abort your shot when the shot doesn't break within the trained script of your process.  I would say for me, I'm moving the trigger for about 4 seconds max.  If the process isn't happening the way it's written you MUST abort and start from step 1 in the process.

Did any of that make sense?

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by orpheoet on Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:44 am

excellent info guys. Yes, I've started doing dry fire practice. 
What I'm trying to do is get the shot off in around 3-4 seconds. I find that if I don't have the shot by then I'm forcing it and the results are usually 4's or off the target. Then I put the gun down, regrip and take the next shot. It usually takes me 7-8 minutes to fire 10 shots. I agree, trigger control is everything. I'm recently trying to move the trigger for the entire time I'm lining up the shot. Honestly my current goal is to have 10 shots in the black. It seems for every 10 I have a 4 or 5. I've only been doing this for about 6 months so I'm ok with my progress. I'd love to make sharpshooter.... My epiphany was when I shot a 97 rapid fire with .22. My best rapid fire with .45 is a 90. So there is definitely some overthinking going on with my slow fire....

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by dronning on Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:19 am

orpheoet wrote:.... Then I put the gun down, regrip and take the next shot. ...

Starting with the right grip position should be part of your shot process and I think many here might suggest once you grip the gun you don't move it or regrip.  The ONLY time you would regrip is if something doesn't feel right AND your target shows it.  Don't regrip if the grip feels wrong BUT you are shooting tens and X's!  Remember how it feels and repeat it!

Consistency is the key to making progress. 

Dave

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by Steve B on Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:25 am

dronning wrote:
orpheoet wrote:.... Then I put the gun down, regrip and take the next shot. ...

Starting with the right grip position should be part of your shot process and I think many here might suggest once you grip the gun you don't move it or regrip.  The ONLY time you would regrip is if something doesn't feel right AND your target shows it.  Don't regrip if the grip feels wrong BUT you are shooting tens and X's!  Remember how it feels and repeat it!

Consistency is the key to making progress. 

Dave
I'd like to add a little to this.  If you have to regrip because the gun has moved in your hand, then you didn't grip it correctly to begin with.  With the gun correctly placed in the hand it will not move from shot to shot, there's no need to regrip.  Saying it another way, regripping adds inconsistency.

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by SteveT on Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:38 am

If you shoot smaller groups using TF cadence you are doing something wrong in SF. Some combination of jerking/snatching the trigger and trying too hard for a perfect shot are the most likely.

It is very common to interrupt the trigger, start/stop and finally jerk/snatch the trigger when the dot is centered. Quite often this results in a better group in the center, but more flyers far out in the 0-zone. In sustained fire it is easier to accept that the dot will be floating around the bull and pull through in a continuous movement. Use the continuous trigger pull in SF and you may find that the center group is a little bigger, but the flyers go away. Perfection is the enemy of good enough. If the dot is somewhere near the bull, pull the trigger.

Make sure your trigger pull when dry firing is the same as your trigger pull when live firing. It is easy to accept the dot moving around and pull the trigger when there won't be an embarrassing hole in the paper. If the two are not the same, dry firing is useless.

In answer to your question (though not, I think, you problem) if I hold on target more than a second or so after settling, I should abort.

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by orpheoet on Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:15 pm

"finally jerk/snatch the trigger when the dot is centered. Quite often this results in a better group in the center, but more flyers far out in the 0-zone."
This is exactly what happens. I usually have 5 or 6 in the black, afew around the black a 4 and one off. lots of great info everyone

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by orpheoet on Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:17 pm

Also I'm shooting open sights, but I get what you're saying...

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by mspingeld on Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:46 am

SteveT, your post above nailed it for me. Thanks for that.

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by Ed Hall on Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:48 am

A lot of thoughts come to mind - I'll mention a few:

If you always have a good first shot, then restarting for every shot, including a regrip, is OK and sometimes even advantageous.  If you're a new shooter, just starting out and never get the same grip, that's something to work on and if you find the right one, keep it throughout the string and write down every detail you can about it in your journal for future reference.

As mentioned, though, you need a grip that stays put, even if you have to modify it from your perceived best.

Go into your shot with the intention of completing it, rather than questioning whether you should abort.  Look for positive indicators rather than negative ones.  When you initiate the trigger operation there will probably be a slight change in the picture.  Learn to continue the press without interruption and any misalignment will correct itself.

I have a couple articles you might find of use at Newsletter Articles and Other Writings/Postings under the heading "BE List Excerpts."  I would suggest looking over the second and third.  Although the exercise article is done at 25 yards, it will scale fine to 50 later on, once you learn the trigger operation.

As a last thought for now, focus on what you seek, not what you wish to leave behind.  Look at and rememebr the good shots and quit giving any energy to the fliers.  Fill your subconscious with centered shots you would like to repeat, so there's no room for something else.

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by 243winxb on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:26 pm

Slow fire - Great for new shooters - When you settle into the wobble zone, start  squeezing the trigger and dont stop till the shot breaks.  The other method is - only squeeze the trigger when sights are in perfect alignment. This requires great physical conditioning.

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by Kermit Workman on Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:35 pm

I had a shot plan. When I had the first negative thought I would abort the shot and start over.

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by orpheoet on Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:32 pm

Lots of great info, thanks. I'm doing a 2700 tomorrow, I'll let everyone know how it goes

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by Ghillieman on Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:55 pm

"Chicken finger" is the killer at 50SF. Slowly squeeze the trigger and shoot with in your wobble zone. Once I acquire the target my wobble zone tightens from about the 8 second mark to the 12 second mark, thats when I try to release the shot. If I get to 15 I abort the shot and start over.

Here is something that will help anyone in all types of shooting.
B.R.A.SS.
Breathe, Relax, Aim, Slowly Squeeze.

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by sixftunda on Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:27 pm

I have been doing a lot of work at home and the range on my slow fire since Camp Perry.



Figure 1-1. Basic Scheme of Minimum Arc of Movement.


This is straight from the AMU manual.  I believe that for a new shooter or a shooter who is not in tip top shape physically you need to be firing the shot by the end of the third second or aborting your process.  Your trigger should start moving before you are settled.  There are very few of us who practice as much or are in as good of shape as the AMU shooters.  They can afford a few more seconds to get their shot off. 

Once you see the dot settled, you should have fired already.  I use a long roll and my trigger is moving as soon as the dot enters the 8 ring.  When the dot enters the X my shot should be breaking, if it doesn't now I am trying to consciously keep it there while I am also trying to move the trigger. That is bad.

Looking at that chart and equating it to my own personal process (which I have written down and so should you):
0-1 Dot is going down through the 8 ring.  Trigger is moving.
1-2 Dot is going down through the 9 ring.  Trigger is still moving.
2-3 Dot is going through 10 ring into the X. Trigger is still moving.
3-4 Shot breaks during this second. 

Your trigger finger could jerk the gun out of the x-ring but the deliberate downward movement of your arm eliminates one of the ways we miss the x-ring.

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This is a dry fire training drill I wrote up after Perry.  It has helped me.  You have to do it everyday and be honest with yourself.  I shot a match on Sunday and my long line percentage was 94%.  An increase of almost 5% over my normal scores.

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by Ed Hall on Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:02 am

First, a great post by sixftunda!  And, congrats on your accomplishments.  However, if I might critique slightly, I prefer to suggest learning what to do right and not studying what you did wrong.  Both have been proven to work, but I feel the former is a shorter path.  You know those guys that just seem to be naturals?  They seem that way because they focus on how to do things right and not how they did things wrong.

As to the slow squeeze, I would like to offer the following:  If you squeeze too slowly, you will be covering up trigger errors with balanced grip errors, which will cause errant shots.  Learn how to make a smooth determined operation that happens in a more fast-paced manner and look for the sighting system to paint the picture you want to see.  Visualize that picture before the process and look for the visual cues that the shot is unfolding as desired.  Use this for both dry and live fire.  If you can, during live firing, expect a perfect dry fire to happen.

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by Axehandle on Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:14 pm

Lets have some old guy shooting slow fire at timed fire cadence prospective.  Here in my early 60s as an insulin dependent diabetic I find that I'm good for about 30 rounds of slow fire and I am done for the day.  My targets go bad and stay bad.   I am tired.  I talked with some older 2650 shooters and found tha tover the years they have routinely shot slow fire at a timed fire cadence.   You old graybeards should rmember the AAMU  shooter Tom Woods.  He was the first really good shooter I saw doing it in the mid 80s.   Think about it.  If you can hold a X ring group shooting timed fire at 25 Yards how much do you really give up shooting timed fire at 50?

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by Ed Hall on Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:41 pm

I have used a sustained fire approach with great success at 50 yards, but in order to do so I have to pay close attention to the settle of each shot.  Bill Blankenship told us long ago that if you study your settle, you can tell which will be good and which will not - only shoot those that will be good.  What that means for me is as long as the settle looks good, I continue to shoot.  This has worked very well for me even allowing me to shoot a 97 and 98 (2nd & 3rd) Slow Fire in .22 at Perry this year in the individual match and a 99 Slow Fire in the team match.  The tough part is the balancing act between whether to fire or not for subsequent shots.  There will always be a first shot.  In order to score a perfect target, you need to score a perfect shot for that first shot.  If you can score a perfect shot consistently for your first shot, then the correct plan is to fire ten first shots.  Conversely, if you plan to fire a string of shots and something doesn't fit your proper settle, you need to have a mechanism in place to abort.  However, you also need to look for cues to continue rather than cues to abort.

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by john bickar on Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:18 am

sixftunda wrote:


Great stuff!

I would recommend changing step #3 to "break shot within 2 seconds"

Positive, simpler, and shorter to boot Smile

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Re: slow fire how long do you line up the shot

Post by orpheoet on Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:08 pm

Ok, I shot 200 points higher at a 2700 match this past sunday compared to 5 weeks ago. Thanks everyone for the tips. The biggest help for me is applying the concept of keeping the trigger moving while the sight settles. This week Im averaging low 80's slow fire at 50 ft. Thats about 15 points higher than a few weeks ago!

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