22 ammo, what do you use

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22 ammo, what do you use

Post by DavidR on Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:19 pm

What do you use, and do you just load it or do you weigh, sort or check rim thickness to get the best accuracy?
Im in the testing stage, trying cci sv, cci pistol match, wolf match, sk jaged and some eley club and lapua pistol match.

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by Rob Kovach on Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:15 pm

I tested a variety of 22 ammo in my High Standard on a beanbag rest and all of the fancy pricey match stuff shot larger groups than the cheap stuff. The best group was CCI standard velocity target (blue box) and the second best group was Federal Lightning 510b! (red box $1.47/50 at Walmart)



If you believe the ballistics info from the manufacturer, the Federal 510b is only a tiny bit faster than the Standard Velocity CCI.



They both feed well out of the magazine which is important for a High Standard.



The case diameters on the CCI's are much more inconsistent. I need to check them for fit in my barrel before a match otherwise I might have an extraction failure.



The Federal is much more consistent for case size and almost never duds or malfunctions in any way.



Weird Huh?

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by Jack H on Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:10 pm

As long as it goes bang most of the time, feeds and extracts, and I like it's feel, I use it. I try to achieve accuracy out of fundamentals. You do have to try enough ammo to weed out the real junk. But once you find what works, you use it to polish your fundamentals. Along the way you might learn the best ammos of the good ammos. Benchrest accuracy will not trump the fundamentals. Most trusted ammo for me right now is as always the lower real Eleys, and the CCI SV blue paperbox from Dick's.

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by jakuda on Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:16 am

CCI Standard Velocity. Paper boxes.

SK Standard Plus is good too, but doesn't seem to perform any better.
Also, surprisngly, the bulk Federal "Automatch" 325-round box ammo is really good too, but per round, you might as well get the CCI.

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by dan allen on Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:51 am

Aguila SE from CMP. I had one case I had to wipe the lube from each round or it would gum up the chamber quick. Current case is good as is. Accurate, reliable and reasonably priced.

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by Founder on Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:03 am

I used CCI SV (blue box 0035) and have a couple bricks left, it is very waxy and actually caused me to sell my model 41. It was building up so much wax on the feed ramp and in the chamber I was having all kinds of issues.

Sold the 41 and bought a Marvel and a case of Aguila SE from the CMP in 2008 they work very well together! Have not found the need to try any other ammo.

IMHO

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by DavidR on Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:18 am

With the answers being basically shoot the cheapest that will function, I would like to hear your average 900 outdoor 22 match scores. Im Still coming off a shoulder injury but i can see points lost shooting the cheaper stuff, cci sv (2.95) best so far 818, but shooting wolf match extra (6.50)shoots in the 830's hope to raise that with my new eley club which is 7.50 a box. But im going to start sorting my bullets by rim thickness soon as i get my check gauge built then maybe the cheaper stuff will do better. The basic problem ive found with the cheap stuff is inconsistent powder charges and rim thickness which will become a flyer which looses you points.

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by Al on Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:10 pm

It all depends on what I'm going to be shooting. Ruger MKII's, Hi Stnd Citations & Marvel all work well with CCI SV. The Rugers and Hi stnds work well with Aquila SE. Rugers work with anything (right now CCI Blazers shoot much better than I can hold-2"@50 yds).

The best gun/ammo combo I've ever tried (back when I thought it helped make up for ability) was just over 5/8"@ 50 yds with a Hi Stnd steel LSP bbl and Lapua Midas M. Now if it shoots under 2 1/2" @ 50 yards I'm good with it. Perhaps if I ever get my shoulder back into form I'll be pickier, but for now if it goes bang reliably, it's ok by me.
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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by Founder on Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:45 pm

Shot an 841/26, 860/23 (local Matches), 863/32 (Canton) and 844/21 (Camp Perry) all shot with Aguila SE from the CMP and Marvel Precision 22 conversion.

$2.35 per box!

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by Jack H on Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:37 pm

I am perpetually at the stage where using Aguila SV or Eley Tenex matters not to the score. I have fired a rare 870 with both. I have also fired 840 with both. In fact one time I fired an 840 something with Tenex. Then turned right around and fired an 860 something with Aguila. My average should be somewhere in the middle. I say 'should be' as I too am recovering and building back up after shoulder surgery. A complete lack of practice time does not help either. Work, other commitments, ailments hurt score more than Tenex will help. Dude! It's not the ammo.

Practice time ought to be ammo trial time too. Try the different ammos available. You will find the ones you trust the most. Notice I said trust.

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by Rob Kovach on Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:28 am

Having an alibi will probably cause you more lost points than any slight accuracy issue of any of the normal .22 ammo choices mentioned so far.

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by Greg Oldakowski on Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:52 pm

My last 3 .22 matches were all mid 860's with a Marvel and CCI SV in the plastic boxes. I see some guys specify the "paper boxes". I didn't know there was a difference. The Federal bulk 525's from Wally World have always shot good for me, but I try not to shoot anything too hot in the Marvel so I stick with Standard Vel loads. I don't check any rim thickness or anything like that. I feed it and shoot it.

Now if I could just get even close to those scores with the .45........


Last edited by Greg Oldakowski on Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:03 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Addition to the post.)

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by DavidR on Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:30 am

Here is the story on CCI SV, (info direct from the tech dept. of CCI)
All CCI standard velocity ammo is identical, they sort and test it for consistency and accuracy. The best goes in a "Pistol Match" box, next best goes in a "green tag" box, next best lots go into "Plastic box" and the least accurate and inconsistent ends up in the cheapest version, "Paper box"
I did some testing of the paper box with a rim thickness gauge found it to be pretty consistent, most of it fell into two sorted lots with a deviation of about 1gr, and each box had a few sub standard light rounds of 2 gr lighter than the heaviest lot, these would most defiantly be fliers imo. I did the same with aguila sv and found it to be all over the place with it taking 4 lots to separate, so if rim thickness means anything then the CCI would be more consistent than aguila if just loading them straight out of the box.

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by deepten on Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:09 pm

I posted a review (in my opinion) on this subject over on Target Talk with a history and the findings on the paper versus the plastic on going debate. I won't repeat the same story on here. I will tell you this, and you can do it for yourself. Get a box of the new paper box 22's in the dark blue box (purchased) at a large chain store and a round out of the CCI standard in plastic and pull the bullet and look at the difference in the powder. The only doubt that I have to DavidR's post is the last part where CCI says the worst lot's end up in the paper box. If so! Why would the powder be different?????

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by jakuda on Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:42 pm

deepten wrote:I posted a review (in my opinion) on this subject over on Target Talk with a history and the findings on the paper versus the plastic on going debate. I won't repeat the same story on here. I will tell you this, and you can do it for yourself. Get a box of the new paper box 22's in the dark blue box (purchased) at a large chain store and a round out of the CCI standard in plastic and pull the bullet and look at the difference in the powder. The only doubt that I have to DavidR's post is the last part where CCI says the worst lot's end up in the paper box. If so! Why would the powder be different?????



link to post? Can't find it in targettalk search

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by deepten on Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:49 pm

Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:06 pm Post subject: CCI Plastic - paper
Ok! Here is what a couple of us at the range found in the last few weeks of going over this subject that has raged on for several years. The new paper box CCI that comes in the dark blue CCI bricks marked #0035. Is "NOT" ( IN OUR OPINION ) the same as CCI in the 100 round plastic boxes. First the bullet was examined under a microscope and no difference could be seen and the case is the same. But when the powder was examined in the #0035 against the powder in the #0032. It is entirely different. We checked #0032 from specimens going back several years to be sure it was the same in the #0032. Which it was. Plus, I tried to try find #0035 listed on CCI's web site and couldn't find it.

The powder in the #0035 was compared with other Federal 22's at the range and the powder matched a couple that we compared it with. Now this isn't a scientific test by any means. But it does show it isn't the exact same load. This also doesn't mean it isn't good ammunition. It just proves that it isn't exactly the same. Our assumption is that as CCI and Federal are owned by the same group. That Maybe the Federal factory is using CCI brass and suppling their own powder and duplicating the CCI bullet or using the CCI bullet? (as the bullet looks the same in both loads). It could be presumed that CCI might be supplying the bullet and brass???? Somewhat like Eley and Agulia (spelling).



Now years ago it was true that paper box and plastic box was the exact same 22's. The paper box was used by the majority of the Bullseye shooters. Then about five or so years ago a whole bunch of us Bullseye shooters got taken to the farm when a well known gun shop had a sale on CCI in cardboard boxes and everyone jumped on the the deal and stocked up. Thinking that this was the same #0032 that we had been using. After receiving the ammo it was found that the bullet was indeed a different color and I believe a different number of lube rings and had more wax and the load number had changed from #0032 to #0035. This is what started the several year long discussion on paper versus plastic. The bullseye group called Federal and the supplier and CCI, and where informed that it was indeed the same stuff and it was in paper because the European market required and requested less plastic in trying to be Greener. And this was a large order distend for Europe and it had been cancelled thus the sale price. Well most of us knew this was not the exact same 22's we had been getting.

Just last month I wrote to a well known supplier to the target shooting community and asked them flat outright please clear this matter up once and for all. Is the CCI paper box ammo that is listed in their catalog as #0035 the same as #0032! And the only difference in price was due to the savings achieved from the plastic packaging versus the paper packaging? As to date not even a courtesy response.

I have shot both #0035 and #0032 at 25 yards and it seems they both shoot as well for that distance and I have not tried it at 50 yards. But! That isn't the point at all, if it shoots as well or not. The lack of just coming out with an explanation as to the differences that are apparent over time escapes me. Especially something that has been going on in numerous forums for at least four years or more. CCI and Federal have been bombarded over the years with this question and have responded with the same story that it is the same ammunition. What could it hurt to just say it is a different loading? Ether use it and save so money or pay the difference and get the original #0032?


So, to recap. The first plastic and paper were the same. Then there was the era of the plastic and paper where the bullet was a different color and was more waxy and was explained as export to Europe, as an over run ,or someone cancelled a big order in Europe. Then we throw in the white plastic tray with legs versus the clear plastic separator tells if Federal made it or CCI, plus the lot number differences. Now, we have what seems to be the same case and bullet but a different powder. The answer to this I guess is going to be closely held by the manufactures which they are entitled to. In the scheme of things. The new #0035 seems to shoot as well as the #0032 So I guess you could say it is a lot of hoopla about nothing.

I just thought I would give you readers my experiences about this subject thru the years. Your experiences and information maybe different.

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by bullseyepistol on Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:48 am

I had been using up 3 cases of Eley Standard that I picked up at Camp Perry 6 years ago for like $260 a case. But after getting down to the last brick and doing some shopping, I got sticker shock to see the new prices on .22 ammo!

I cringed a little while doing it, but I ordered a case of Eley Target for $580 including shipping. Sometimes you have to live a little! Smile

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by BE Mike on Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:48 am

I suppose the only way to really end this debate is to put one pistol in a Ransom Rest and shoot both types of CCI SV and see which groups best. If they group about the same, then the only difference would be the price point...right?

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:09 pm

I put my CCI SV from the cardboard into old CCI SV 100 round plastic boxes so they shoot the same.lol!

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by DavidR on Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:09 am

Like i said, The info i provided came straight from CCI whom i talked to myself, no third party hearsay, Now if what they told me was not true then its anybody's guess to what is in the paper box, In that case if i was shooting it and since there is only .75 cents difference in 50 rounds of plastic box over the paper box, I would definitely do some testing to see if 75 cents extra might end up being a path to a higher score. Im going to break open the two and will post my findings.


Last edited by DavidR on Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by DavidR on Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:44 am

Ok, i tore down 2 of the CCI STD VEL rounds, one from plastic box stick of 100 and the other from the blue paper box of 50. First i weighed them, each was the same 51.1 gr, i inspected them, exactly the same bullet and case, then the powder was weighed both exactly 1.1 gr but as deepten said it is very easy to see the powder was a different type in each one. So thanks for the info and that gives everyone using CCI some food for thought. I am going to call them and ask, so stay tuned!

: Ok, i talked to the same lady who had originally given me the "its all the same" She did say that back for a short time years ago some CCI rimfires were run on federals line but no more. Then she pulled up the full tech data and told me that CCI uses alliant powder(CCI owns Alliant) and it has an alternate powder that can be substituted in case of short supply or not being available. She then told me to give her the lot numbers of the boxes i checked, seems my paper box part 50035 with lot numbers starting with f contain the A1500 ( their in house # for Alliant powder) My plastic box with a lot number starting with C uses OP516 which is their alternate powder which she says comes from a powder company out of Florida . So the end result of what she told me was every CCI SV round regardless of being Pistol match, greentag, plastic or paper box that is current production can be charged with one or the other of these two powders and the only way to know which you have is to research the lot numbers. Supposedly the powders used are identical in burn rate and other characteristics and the only reason for having two is in case one manufacture couldn't provide their powder, CCI could still continue producing the product. Im not buying the story 100% because she still told me how they determine what goes in as pistol match & greentag was by testing lots for consistency and accuracy and what didnt make in those two went in plastic box. So i went and broke down some more rounds. I checked my old pistol match purchased in 2002, my new pistol match bought this year and my plastic box from 02 and some bought a few months ago and everyone has the same powder. So i think what ever is being used in the CCI SV blue paper box is just the cheaper of the two powders and with the cheaper paper box lets them earn more profit and sell it for less. So maybe paper box will shoot as good as the other grades, maybe not but Paper box is different.

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by deepten on Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:26 pm

In my opinion the the powder story has some merit as they would be prudent to have a back up powder on hand. One plant could burn down or have a strike Etc. I would bet it would be very hard to find a lot of #0032 with that powder in it. But I believe the larger black flaked powder is a bulk (cheaper) powder that both federal and CCI use in their cheaper ammunition. This only my opinion! This powder matched a couple of different rounds we checked in the Federal line up at the range. ( Not very scientific) Wish we had written down the ammunition designations. We tried to find some Blazer rounds to see if we could confirm that the powder was being used in the cheaper Federal and CCI product line together. Still funny CCI doesn't list the #0035 designation on their web site.

I would presume that the paper box is a less expensive line and money is saved by using paper and a cheaper powder and only half of the plastic separator from the 100 packs. In the quantities that CCI sells those few cents mean big money. One suggestion was to Ransom rest the paper versus plastic to see which is best. I have done enough Ransom rest testing of 22's to know that the variables to those findings would prove only what that lot and gun and conditions predicated. Most of us also know that almost any decent 22's and gun will hold X ring at 25 yards. Now! 50 yards is another matter.

So on it goes!!!!!! If nothing else it has been interesting. So what does it all come down to. #0032 and #0035 are "NOT" the same. Unless the story that the CCI lady tells is true and there is some lots of #0032 out here that does have the optional powder in it. Anyone want to go on a search??? As DavidR said above. Save .75 cents and shoot #0035 or just stick with #0032 and take your chances that you didn't hit the lot that has the optional powder in it and could have saved the .75 cents!

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by DavidR on Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:21 am

Sir... Will that be Paper or Plastic lol!


My bet is overall plastic beats paper box and will do better just because it is made with what has been proven for many years by many to be a accurate consistent performer. But if .75 cents keeps you from a good nights sleep, shoot the cheap stuff. Very Happy

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22 Rimfire Comparison

Post by AllAces on Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:53 am

Here's a good comparison of rimfire ammo.



http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/22lr-rimfire-ammo-comparison-test/



I find CCI standard velocity is very accurate in a Ruger MK II Target model.

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

Post by Steve B on Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:47 pm

I run Wolf Match Target (exact same round as S&K Std Plus) in my Marvel because it's completely reliable and shoots around 3/4" for 10 shots @ 50 yards. CCI Std Vel (paper box from Dick's) in my wife's Clark Ruger MKII because it's cheap and shoots just over 1" for 10 shots @ 50 yards. I don't bother with sorting for rim thickness nor weight with that kind of accuracy.

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Re: 22 ammo, what do you use

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