Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

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Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by s1120 on Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:22 am

Well I do have a 1911... but its a old Remington Rand that Dad turned into a BE gun back in the 60's. Its real old, has a ton of history, and is getting pretty sloppy. So its really out of the running for use on the BE line. That being said, I need a new 1911. I really don't have a ton of extra green hanging around, with kids, house, day to day living, so a custom BE pistol is just not a option for me. Mostly Im looking into a slightly used SA RO. That's pretty much the max on my spending limit. Is there any other good choices out there for a good serviceable .45 bullseye gun in that about 600-700 buck range? Im a new BE shooter, and at this time am only really able to shoot a few shoots a year. At this point Im shooting iron sights, but a dot might be in my future. Any other serviceable pistols in that range, or should I keep saving and stick to searching for a RO? Thanks for any advice.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by beeser on Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:38 am

I'll take a stab at this one but realize I'm new to BE (and shooting in general) too and in all likelihood will be wrong.  Hopefully more knowledgeable members will step in and provide better guidance.  If resources are tight I would consider staying away from the .45 for the time being and concentrate on the .22.  Both the hardware and ammo to shoot .22 are considerably less but still give you the opportunity to practice most of the skills needed in BE and also compete.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by s1120 on Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:09 am

I agree, and i am working on just .22 now, and i have good .22 pistols. Im lookingfor advice on working toward getting into .45 also. The "45 fund" will not be ready till next year.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Rob Kovach on Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:40 am

RO is the way to go. There aren't many "sure things" in this world but getting a new RO that can outshoot you is a pretty good bet.

I've still never seen an RO that can't shoot well enough for bullseye.

Have fun and I hope to see you out there!

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Ghillieman on Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:12 pm

I would say to send that old Remington off to Clark or another BE gunsmith to be reworked.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Axehandle on Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:45 pm

Now I like the plan to rebuild your Dad's old BE gun.  Find a good gunsmith who will talk to you about it.  You might be suprised at what can be done to the old gun and just what the old gun will do with a new barrel, a sight upgrade, and a little slide to frame fitting.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by BE Mike on Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:06 pm

You'd be surprised what Accurails, new barrel and bushing and new trigger components fitted properly could do for that old war horse.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Steve B on Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:42 pm

s1120 wrote:I agree, and i am working on just .22 now, and i have good .22 pistols. Im lookingfor advice on working toward getting into .45 also. The "45 fund" will not be ready till next year.
In that case I'll echo the sentiments of some of these others.  Save up and have a good gunsmith rebuild that pistol.  You're not out the cost of the gun that way, since I assume it was inherited.  Unfortunately, contrary to other opinions on here, I've shot a couple RO's that are not sufficient for someone who is serious about competing in bullseye.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by beeser on Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:51 pm

Steve B wrote:In that case I'll echo the sentiments of some of these others.  Save up and have a good gunsmith rebuild that pistol.  You're not out the cost of the gun that way, since I assume it was inherited.  Unfortunately, contrary to other opinions on here, I've shot a couple RO's that are not sufficient for someone who is serious about competing in bullseye.
What's "not sufficient" about the RO?

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Jon Eulette on Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:19 pm

I've built BE pistols from nearly every make out there. They are ALL capable of sub 1.5" groups when finished provided that you use the right ammunition. Difference between top of the line and bottom of the line pistol is machining tolerances.  They can all be worked around good or bad. But ultimately barrel fit is the deciding factor to whether a pistol is competitive.  You can make high master with any make of pistol, but only if built by a true BE pistolsmith. Also it takes me twice as long to build a low end quality frame/slide as the base pistol. I've built series 70 Colts that were worse than many of the import 1911 clones out there. So a RO in my opinion is a great starting point for a competitive pistol. So if bragging rights are necessary get a Cabot, but otherwise any make out there will get you to high master if properly built.
Jon

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Steve B on Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:36 pm

beeser wrote:
Steve B wrote:In that case I'll echo the sentiments of some of these others.  Save up and have a good gunsmith rebuild that pistol.  You're not out the cost of the gun that way, since I assume it was inherited.  Unfortunately, contrary to other opinions on here, I've shot a couple RO's that are not sufficient for someone who is serious about competing in bullseye.
What's "not sufficient" about the RO?
I will try to explain my comments without straying from the topic.  I assume that anyone who asks about equipment wants to seriously compete in this sport, they are not directed toward the hobbyist.  A sufficiently accurate gun/ammo combination is one is where the shooter is the only variable.  If I throw a shot I want to know that it was me not the equipment.  Only accurate guns can 'teach' the shooter what they do incorrectly.  A sufficient 45, in my mind,  is well under 2".  Most RO's, in stock form, are probably well North of 4-5".  A gun like that could throw your called 10 into an 8.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Steve B on Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:17 pm

Another way to think about it...  I've recently read comments regarding a gun bring accurate enough.  The poster would state when they are able to outshoot their current equipment then it's time to upgrade.  If you're shooting a 4-6" pistol and you add your wobble area to that the net result could be upwards of a 10" group.
If my gun is capable of 1" and I can keep 10 shots inside 4" then I should consistently shoot mid to high nineties. 
Make sense?

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by beeser on Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:44 pm

Steve B wrote:Another way to think about it...  I've recently read comments regarding a gun bring accurate enough.  The poster would state when they are able to outshoot their current equipment then it's time to upgrade.  If you're shooting a 4-6" pistol and you add your wobble area to that the net result could be upwards of a 10" group.
If my gun is capable of 1" and I can keep 10 shots inside 4" then I should consistently shoot mid to high nineties. 
Make sense?
Makes sense but what specifically about the RO is "not sufficient"?  Is it the barrel, trigger, bushing, slide, etc. or how it's fit?

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Steve B on Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:06 pm

As a final note toward the OP I would recommend taking the money you would use toward a new gun and possible mods and put it into that old bullseye pistol having the work done by a competent smith.

The Range Officer is a production gun not a tight tolerance, custom fit bullseye pistol.  Some guys may have gotten lucky with them but I woudn't count on that being the norm.  Production guns are not capable of the type of accuracy I described or that Jon Eulette is capable of building.  Sufficient is a gun that shows it's shooter that he threw a shot not one that leaves its shooter wanting the to throw the gun because it's not on call.

If I owned an RO and intended on using it in competition the only parts that would be retained would be the frame and slide.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Rob Kovach on Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:44 pm

Steve B,

How many ROs have you shot, and how many of those were 4" or worse?  What ammo were you using to test them?  Was a ransom rest involved?

In my experience testing ROs for new shooters and helping new shooters get set up, I haven't seen an RO that was worse than a 3.25" gun at 50 yards.

Even if you do buy an RO for $780ish that ends up shooting 4" or worse at 50 yards, you could resell that thing to any other shooter at your club for $725 in no time at all, and buy another new one and try again.  I am going to assert that MOST ROs are 3" or less out of the box.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Steve B on Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:07 pm

LOL, I wondered how long you were going to take Rob.
Assert all you want, sounds like you got lucky with a production gun.  If someone wants to roll the dice on one of those that's their choice.  I don't believe Springfield will guarantee that kind of performance.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Rob Kovach on Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:29 pm

6 different guns isn't getting lucky, it's a good product.

If you are going to make a claim about the product, please back it up with your specific observations.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Steve B on Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:16 pm

Yeah, it's lucky.  Someone can buy a Baer wadcutter and it's only guaranteed for 3".  You want to suggest that a production fit pistol will shoot that well?  I hope few take your advice and expect that kind of performance.

I've shot 2 RO's.  At 25 yards, from my hand, they threw shots 3 scoring rings from where they were called.  This was using a load that is known to shoot well for several of our local guys.  It's proof enough for me.  You can respond but I'm done as this is pointless now.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by dronning on Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:36 pm

I own 3 Les Baer guns love 'em but if I had to do it over I would have gone the RO route.  Way too many people I have met that shoot them are totally happy with the RO.  I've RR'd a couple and they have shot close to or under 3" - my Baer wad gun is guaranteed under 2". All you need to do with the RO to really tighten it up is fit a new bushing, replace the ILS, and add a KC drop in roll trigger.  Do this and those RO's you shot will hold 3" and easily take you to master if you do your part.  Even with the adds that's a big savings from what I have invested.

JMHO
- Dave

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by TexasShooter on Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:48 pm

s1120 wrote: Im a new BE shooter, and at this time am only really able to shoot a few shoots a year.

I'm a new BE shooter too, so I don't have the kind of experience with custom guns that these other folks do. When I started a few months ago I heard some advice from a long time Bullseye guy who is also a pretty good Bullseye gunsmith. I asked him about the RO, and specifically about making it more accurate. He said the RO is a very good base to start with, but that I would be better off working on my ammo to make sure I was getting the most out of the RO. Once I have good ammo, take the money I saved by buying the RO instead of a custom and spend it on making lots of ammo so I can practice, and shoot matches, and then practice some more so I can do better at matches, and then go practice. Makes sense to me...

Sorry if I'm sticking my nose in where I shouldn't. As I said, I'm a newbie and don't mind being called a hobbyist. I certainly don't have the expertise that a lot of these folks do. But even as a hobbyist I'm pretty competitive by nature and understand the importance of good equipment...the RO gives me a durn good start, and I get to shoot now instead of a couple of years from now after I've saved enough for that custom. BTW - I guess I was lucky too, my RO will do better than 4" at 50 yard...and yes, a ransom rest was involved cuz I sure can't shoot that well.

Clay

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:17 pm

beeser wrote:
Steve B wrote:In that case I'll echo the sentiments of some of these others.  Save up and have a good gunsmith rebuild that pistol.  You're not out the cost of the gun that way, since I assume it was inherited.  Unfortunately, contrary to other opinions on here, I've shot a couple RO's that are not sufficient for someone who is serious about competing in bullseye.
What's "not sufficient" about the RO?

My RO shot almost 4" at 25 yards.  I would argue that's probably "not sufficient".  Springfield refit my barrel and replaced the bushing.  Shoots sub 2" groups with the same ammunition now.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Rob Kovach on Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:25 pm

JayhawkNavy02 wrote:My RO shot almost 4" at 25 yards.  I would argue that's probably "not sufficient". 
Absolutely.
JayhawkNavy02 wrote:Springfield refit my barrel and replaced the bushing.  Shoots sub 2" groups with the same ammunition now.
That's what I like to hear!

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Astroimage2002 on Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:28 pm

Hi Paul, 

I'd say shoot your dad's gun and see what it does while you figure out a direction to take. I own two Range Officers and am not in a hurry to buy a third. One of them has ben converted to a 22 and I am still figuring out what to do with the other. 

Brian

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:37 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:
JayhawkNavy02 wrote:My RO shot almost 4" at 25 yards.  I would argue that's probably "not sufficient". 
Absolutely.
JayhawkNavy02 wrote:Springfield refit my barrel and replaced the bushing.  Shoots sub 2" groups with the same ammunition now.
That's what I like to hear!

Test target from Springfield after the barrel re-fit and bushing was replaced.  I would argue my $715 is probably bouncing around the performance of some much more expensive hardball guns, especially considering the test target was done with bulk FMJ vice hand picked match grade stuff and it still shot pretty good.

Springfield Range Officer
1.748" Group
5 Rounds
25 Yards
Federal 230 gr FMJ


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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Astroimage2002 on Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:41 pm

[url=/u1824]JayhawkNavy02[/url],


What is the group size at 50 yards and what did the mods cost you?


Brian

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

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