Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

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Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by s1120 on Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:22 am

First topic message reminder :

Well I do have a 1911... but its a old Remington Rand that Dad turned into a BE gun back in the 60's. Its real old, has a ton of history, and is getting pretty sloppy. So its really out of the running for use on the BE line. That being said, I need a new 1911. I really don't have a ton of extra green hanging around, with kids, house, day to day living, so a custom BE pistol is just not a option for me. Mostly Im looking into a slightly used SA RO. That's pretty much the max on my spending limit. Is there any other good choices out there for a good serviceable .45 bullseye gun in that about 600-700 buck range? Im a new BE shooter, and at this time am only really able to shoot a few shoots a year. At this point Im shooting iron sights, but a dot might be in my future. Any other serviceable pistols in that range, or should I keep saving and stick to searching for a RO? Thanks for any advice.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:20 am

Astroimage2002 wrote:JayhawkNavy02,


What is the group size at 50 yards and what did the mods cost you?


Brian

I don't have a ransom rest, so I don't want to post 50 yard figures.  I need to roll up to Fairfax or 12th precinct to use one, but I've been lazy about the drive.  So anything I spout off would be from a sand bag and not truly be representative.  From a real world perspective, my last BE league score was a 249, which I'm very happy with considering I'm just starting out (3rd time shooting league) and this pistol is eventually going to be replaced with a full custom build from a BE Gunsmith so I don't get too worked up about performance as its not a permanent solution.  What is holding my RO back isn't just the barrel and slide to frame fit, but IMO the trigger job from Springfield Custom.  It is better than when I bought it and probably perfect for 99% of applications, but IMO, not nearly as nice as what comes from a reputable BE Gunsmith.  Once I have my CF and SP builds done, the RO will be a dedicated 22 platform and a backup CF.

Modifications I paid for:

-Barrel Bushing: $50
-4lb Trigger Job: $100
-Shipping: $15
-Total:  $165

Warranty work done by Springfield Armory at no charge:

-Replace slide stop pin
-Refit barrel
-Tune/Adjust Extractor
-Re-cut breech wall
-Install/Tune new sear spring
-Correct/adjust slide to frame fit

Total Cost for my BE Pistol: $880  Smile


Last edited by JayhawkNavy02 on Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:32 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by s1120 on Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:11 am

Ya, I know I should just shot the RR, but that might be going to a family member in the coming years, so I don't want to do too much to it.

Thanks for your advice guys. Im soaking it all in!! I have heard the tails of some of the RO's coming out a little sub par. It seems that with anything these days you take that chance. Come to think of it, I guess that held true for the old days also. I would love to get a custom pistol, but that's just not a option. Im hoping to find a nice baseline 1911 that can grow with me. As I posted before. Im lucky that I already have some nice .22 pistols. I have two old High Standards that can clearly out shoot me. Smile

Ive heard talk of sub standard frames, out of spec parts, and non interchangeability in some of the lower cost 1911's, and that's what I want to avoid. Ive also seen a few of the more basic SA 1911's, that wile they are a little less cost... by the time you add adjustable sights, and a better barrel, your at, or above the cost of the RA.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:19 am

I understand, I have my Grandfather's Colt Match Target.  Its a terrific pistol, but I would hate to damage it.  I've had to repair it a few times and it is both costly and painful, so it was retired in favor of a Nelson Custom 22 conversion.  My scores went up, I can get parts, and if it goes down, its not the end of the world. 

Here's a great article by David Sams on 1911 inspection from the perspective of a BE gunsmith/shooter in the event you look at a used/new BE 1911 at some point.

NRA Shooting Sport USA Magazine "A Day with a Master Gunsmith" Magazine Article Hyperlink




Last edited by JayhawkNavy02 on Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by dronning on Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:53 am

s1120 wrote:.... It seems that with anything these days you take that chance. Come to think of it, I guess that held true for the old days also. ...

So true, pick a brand/mfg. and I can find someone that got a lemon or at least not up to the brand/mfg. standards.  We are lucky because in the shooting sports industry reputation is still everything and most mfg./custom smiths will make things right - unless your an a-hole about it then good luck! LOL

- Dave

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by sixftunda on Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:08 am

The nine ring is 5.54 inches on a fifty yard target.  If the combination of you and your gun can shoot a nine ring size group then you will have a minimum score of 90 each time.  You can shoot a Master score with a gun like this and I did it.
You shoot three rounds of slow fire at 90 each is a 270.
Then you shoot an average of 97 for each short line round is a 585.
That is an 855. 

If your .22 game is strong you can even afford to drop a few more points on your CF and .45.

The downside to this strategy: If your gun is not at the top of its game, then you have to be.  You will have to shoot High Master scores on the short line to make up for the guns shortcomings on the long line.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:45 am

I shoot in the mid 90s at the long line with mine.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by sixftunda on Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:06 am

Rob Kovach wrote:I shoot in the mid 90s at the long line with mine.


Is that the gun you used at Perry?

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:25 am

Yes.  It was a stainless loaded target before I converted it to EIC legal, but the Springfield guys say that all of the fitting is the same between the RO and the Loaded Target, so I just say it's the same as an RO.  It still has the same Springfield barrel and bushing that it and all the ROs came from the factory with. 

I shot 9th place SS and got bongo bucks with that gun in the .45 Slow fire match at Perry this year--and that's with a 4lb trigger and iron sights.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by sixftunda on Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:19 pm

My other advice whether you have a custom gun or a stock RO is that you should compile your match scores on a spreadsheet and take an honest look at your scores.  I mean brutal honest.  Even get a second opinion.  Ask yourself or have someone tell you what is holding you back.  Your equipment or you.
It is good to focus on that 95 slow fire you shot once but if your average over the last six matches is actually an 86 then you are probably going to be stuck in Sharpshooter unless you make a change in equipment, training or a combination of both. Sorry to tell you this but it also it means that the 95 was a fluke. 

My current gun is a custom built 1911 that grouped 1.78" from a ransom rest.  I use the exact same load that it was tested with and my average slow fire score in my last three matches is 187.  That is a four point improvement over the previous three matches and a seven point improvement over my last three matches with my old Range Officer. 

I still think a RO is a good choice for someone wanting to start on a budget but understand that it will hold you back.  That is something that experienced BE smiths and High Masters already know and that is why you will not see them endorse using a stock gun.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by beeser on Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:06 pm

JayhawkNavy02 wrote:I understand, I have my Grandfather's Colt Match Target.  Its a terrific pistol, but I would hate to damage it.  I've had to repair it a few times and it is both costly and painful, so it was retired in favor of a Nelson Custom 22 conversion.  My scores went up, I can get parts, and if it goes down, its not the end of the world. 

Here's a great article by David Sams on 1911 inspection from the perspective of a BE gunsmith/shooter in the event you look at a used/new BE 1911 at some point.

NRA Shooting Sport USA Magazine "A Day with a Master Gunsmith" Magazine Article Hyperlink


I really enjoyed reading this article.  It doesn't make me want to go out and buy a custom but was very informative.  Thanks for posting it.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:24 pm

Sixftunda wrote:Ask yourself or have someone tell you what is holding you back.  Your equipment or you.
You are right--but I don't want to leave any new shooters with the misconception that they need to drop thousands of dollars for a custom .45 to participate in this sport.
For me, it's definitely not the equipment.  Last few slowfire matches are low 180s, high 170's.  Keep in mind that I shoot the same gun better when it's set up with the dot and lighter trigger.  I'm focusing on EIC points so I am shooting irons and 4lb trigger right now.  My factory Springfield isn't holding me back.  When you shoot 6-7 tens and 3-4 sixes, it's not the equipment.

The only thing holding me back is I need to shoot and dryfire more.  I did this TF target with that production Springfield w/ 4lb trigger and irons today, other shooters can do the same thing without a custom .45 also.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by beeser on Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:06 pm

Rob - Nice shooting from my perspective.  "TF" as in timed fire?  What was the distance?

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Rob Kovach on Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:33 pm

Yes, TF=Timed Fire, and it's at the standard 25yard distance.  The Rapid Fire target I shot after this one was 8 tens, 1 nine, and a 6. EEEESH.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Larry Lang on Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:12 pm

beeser, 
You can practice trigger control and sight alignment/picture with a 4" pistol and if you get good at it you can take it to a match. 

If you do well spend some money and buy some points.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by beeser on Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:36 pm

Larry Lang wrote:beeser, 
You can practice trigger control and sight alignment/picture with a 4" pistol and if you get good at it you can take it to a match. 

If you do well spend some money and buy some points.
???
and
huh?

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Rob Kovach on Mon Sep 01, 2014 12:02 am

It's just Larry's way of saying bring what you already have to some matches.
There are many purely academic things that we discuss here that don't mean a lot unless they are applied at a real match.

Buying points is slang for buying new equipment that will make you shoot better scores.

The other bonus to shooting at matches is meeting the other shooters who usually will show you the equipment that they have that works for them, and they may have gunsmithing contacts near you.  As you grow your sphere of bullseye friends it can help you learn the things you want to know in your journey.

This doesn't just apply to beeser, but to all of the newer shooters here.  Shoot every match you can!

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Ghillieman on Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:25 am

I have fallen victim to the 25 yard accuracy test before, only to be at a match and wonder what the hell was going on at 50. A tight 25 yard group is a good indicator but a tight 50 yard group is proof.

As to the OP. That old Remington May still have a lot of life still in it.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by beeser on Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:57 am

Ghillieman wrote:I have fallen victim to the 25 yard accuracy test before, only to be at a match and wonder what the hell was going on at 50. A tight 25 yard group is a good indicator but a tight 50 yard group is proof.

As to the OP. That old Remington May still have a lot of life still in it.
Why can't the inherent accuracy of the gun be extrapolated from 25 to 50 yds?  Is it possible the difference after extrapolation is because of the shooter reacting to the increased distance instead of the gun or ammo?  And is it possible the ballistics of the bullet changes from 25 to 50 yds?

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Rob Kovach on Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:08 am

Sometimes a gun has a linear expansion of group size proportional to the increase in distance, for some guns/ammo combinations that just isn't the case.  Just like a curve ball doesn't start turning until a few feet before the batter, or the spin on a bowling ball doesn't start making the ball turn until the last 1/4 of the bowling lane, some guns/ammo can shoot straight to 25 but have the round lose it's stability somewhere before 50 yards.

You can't prove the accuracy through extrapolation, you can only prove it through real life testing.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by james r chapman on Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:14 am

Rob Kovach wrote:Sometimes a gun has a linear expansion of group size proportional to the increase in distance, for some guns/ammo combinations that just isn't the case.  Just like a curve ball doesn't start turning until a few feet before the batter, or the spin on a bowling ball doesn't start making the ball turn until the last 1/4 of the bowling lane, some guns/ammo can shoot straight to 25 but have the round lose it's stability somewhere before 50 yards.

You can't prove the accuracy through extrapolation, you can only prove it through real life testing.
Exactly. Many scores are ruined by 25 to 50yd assumptions.

Whether it's B.E or P.P.C or I.H.M.S.A,  it's been proven over and over, it's gotta show what it can do at the max yardage it is expected to perform at!

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by dronning on Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:45 am

All my guns shoot perfectly straight for 49yards Wink

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by Ghillieman on Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:46 am

Beeser-
   After ransom rest testing I have found this to be the norm. Not shooter induced error, but rather an accumulation of variables at extended distances. The distance between 25 yards and 50 yards is relatively short, but because of variable accumulation accuracy is not linear. Keep in mind we are not shooting two 25 yard targets, but one 50 yard which gives the time for these variables to stack up.

So as I said, a tight 25 yard group is an indicator but a tight 50 yard group is proof.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

Post by davekp on Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:01 am

What is happening is due to the velocity decreasing. It takes longer to go the second 25 yds than the first. The horizontal and vertical  vectors of the bullet aren't affected by the decrease in velocity- thus the spread gets greater than simply 2 times the spread at 25 yds.

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Re: Saving for a 45. Not a ton of green, so whats out there?

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