roll vs crisp

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roll vs crisp

Post by 285wannab on Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:03 am

So I have a trigger question.  I have a 41 with a crisp trigger.  When shooting slow fire I come to the middle and let my dot settle, then start the trigger.  One tenth of a second later the shot goes off.
For the guys who have roll triggers do you start high left, if your a right hand shooter, and start the trigger moving on the way down so by the time the dot is in the center the gun is going off?
Another question. Right now I'm shooting timed and rapid at the same pace. My thinking is one less thing to think about. 7 seconds and I'm done.  I feel this is to fast but where can I slow down?  Coming down to the center or when I get to the center? Guess I'm thinking if you have a roll trigger you would be in the middle a bit longer.  I'm also thinking if I could slow down I could pick up a point or two.  Right now I'm on auto pilot, bang, recoil up a little and to the left, come down and bang etc.......
Ideas?????

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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by Jon Eulette on Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:04 am

The shot process is the same for a roll or crisp trigger. One trigger (roll) has perceptible movement and crisp does not. Personal choice obviously,  but both are shot the same for sf, to & rf.
Jon
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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by Jon Eulette on Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:57 am

The shot process is the same for a roll or crisp trigger. One trigger (roll) has perceptible movement and crisp does not. Personal choice obviously,  but both are shot the same for sf, to & rf.
Jon
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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by 285wannab on Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:23 am

Can the guys who use roll triggers explain why they prefer them over crisp triggers.  It seems the majority has roll triggers.

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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by Ed Hall on Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:40 am

When you are shooting a crisp trigger, it can be difficult to "know" that the pressure on the trigger is truly increasing rather than just the tensions in the finger.  It is possible to apply increasing tension to both the flexors and the extensors without increasing the external force applied to the trigger.

When you are shooting a roll trigger, you can feel the movement of the sear on the hammer hooks and "know" that the action is progressing.

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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by Dr.Don on Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:44 am

We used to call "roll" "creep", and almost nobody wanted it.  My guess is that the roll provides positive feedback that you are actually making progress in pressing the trigger and have not gone "chicken finger" on it.  But I should let the guys who prefer roll answer your question.

(Ed confirmed my suspicion while I was typing.)


Last edited by Dr.Don on Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by kc.crawford.7 on Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:50 am

IMO the difference between a roll feel and "creep" is that creep is not smooth or consistent. A roll trigger should be a smooth continuous pull as you feel the sear moving along the hammer hooks till release. It can help is that continuous, uninterrupted trigger pull.
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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by Jon Eulette on Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:27 am

When I build a short roll trigger for myself I do it probably different than most. I set it up where if I'm squeezing the trigger confidently I can't feel it roll. But on days where the chicken finger is dominating Razz) , I feel the roll because I'm squeezing trigger slower. I like it to roll like that because it's letting me know that the trigger is in fact moving, and I know that if I just keep applying the squeeze it's going to fire. It takes away the tendency to help the shot off.

And KC's right on the money about the difference between creep and roll. Whatever we shoot should be consistent.
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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by dronning on Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:07 am

I have a Gold Cup with a "2 stage" roll.  It moves really smoothly then stops as pressure builds it starts moving again then bang - I've never had it fixed because it is actually kind of nice to shoot!
  lol!

- Dave
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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by Steve B on Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:55 pm

I shoot roll triggers on all my guns.  I found that the hammer release is based on position rather than a pressure buildup, like Ed Hall was describing.  My finger remembers the position of release better, after a long day's match, than the amount of pressure it takes to achieve the same result.
Those who shoot roll triggers probably, like I, start the trigger moving before the dot is settled.  As I come in from the top of the target, as soon as the dot touches the black 8 ring (50 yard SF target) my trigger is moving rearward.  Through the act of moving the trigger the dot 'settles' to the center while minimizing wobble.
When shooting a roll in sustained fire you have to learn to keep the trigger moving almost continuously.  I find the dot settles back into the center faster when a reset is performed during recoil and the trigger is slowly brought rearward, essentially 'pulling' the dot back to center.  This technique is carefully learned through much dry fire and practice BTW.
If you're able attending a Zins clinic is EXTREMELY beneficial.

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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by Jon Eulette on Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:01 pm

That's an excellent description of how to execute a proper shot!
Jon
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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by Jack H on Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:41 pm

My roll trigger experience seems to drive the dot out just as much as in.
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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by Steve B on Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:54 pm

Jack H wrote:My roll trigger experience seems to drive the dot out just as much as in.
I have that same issue when watching the dot instead of focusing on the target.

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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by jman on Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:39 am

Can a longer length of travel, on a model 41 give it more of a roll trigger feel?

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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by Jon Eulette on Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:19 am

The longer travel would have to come from more sear engagement. In other words the hammer full cock notch would need to be deepened for longer sear travel. If the sear is rounded you can get a roll type feel. The 2# triggers are harder to get a roll than a 3.5# trigger in my opinion. The extra spring tension helps with the roll.
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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by 285wannab on Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:06 am

Ed Hall wrote:When you are shooting a crisp trigger, it can be difficult to "know" that the pressure on the trigger is truly increasing rather than just the tensions in the finger.  It is possible to apply increasing tension to both the flexors and the extensors without increasing the external force applied to the trigger.

When you are shooting a roll trigger, you can feel the movement of the sear on the hammer hooks and "know" that the action is progressing.
I think I know what you mean. On my 41 with my finger on the trigger, I pull though the mush/tissue in my finger then the sear breaks.  I don't know any action is happening until the sear breaks.  After thinking about my last sentence isn't that what we want, a surprise break?  But maybe this type of surprise break makes me jump on the trigger more because the dot is moving and causes a bad shot.

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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by 285wannab on Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:09 am

Steve B wrote:
Jack H wrote:My roll trigger experience seems to drive the dot out just as much as in.
I have that same issue when watching the dot instead of focusing on the target.
When I shoot I see the dot on the target, everything looks like it is in on the same plane.  Do you guys see things differently?

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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by 285wannab on Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:16 am

Jon Eulette wrote:The longer travel would have to come from more sear engagement. In other words the hammer full cock notch would need to be deepened for longer sear travel. If the sear is rounded you can get a roll type feel. The 2# triggers are harder to get a roll than a 3.5# trigger in my opinion. The extra spring tension helps with the roll.
Jon
With the angle cut on the end of the sear on a 41 how could you get more engagement?  You lose 1/16"  right there.  I wouldn't mind trying a roll on my 41 if it is possible.

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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by Steve B on Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:16 am

285wannab wrote:
Steve B wrote:
Jack H wrote:My roll trigger experience seems to drive the dot out just as much as in.
I have that same issue when watching the dot instead of focusing on the target.
When I shoot I see the dot on the target, everything looks like it is in on the same plane.  Do you guys see things differently?
You are correct, they are essentially on the same plane.  I turn the dot down so the target can still be seen under it.  When my focus is on the target the perceived motion of the dot is reduced while moving the trigger rearward.  But, for me, when focusing on the dot and trying to move the trigger I see a lot more movement.  You can't help but see the dot over the target but I try to put my focus on that which isn't moving.  It's something that has to be practiced and applied to see if it works for you.

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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by Larry Lang on Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:59 pm

I replaced the hammers on one of my .45s and a dedicated Marvel frame. I did my best kitchen table roll triggers on each. Of course I had to like them and found the roll on the .22 worked well, but when shooting the .45 as soon as I began feeling the trigger begin to move I got all goofy and jumped on it. I have since changed them back to crisp with this belief, "If you have good trigger control it doesn't matter whether it's crisp or roll...you still have good trigger control." It's not a place to buy points for a rookie.
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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by 285wannab on Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:17 pm

Steve B wrote:
285wannab wrote:
Steve B wrote:
Jack H wrote:My roll trigger experience seems to drive the dot out just as much as in.
I have that same issue when watching the dot instead of focusing on the target.
When I shoot I see the dot on the target, everything looks like it is in on the same plane.  Do you guys see things differently?
You are correct, they are essentially on the same plane.  I turn the dot down so the target can still be seen under it.  When my focus is on the target the perceived motion of the dot is reduced while moving the trigger rearward.  But, for me, when focusing on the dot and trying to move the trigger I see a lot more movement.  You can't help but see the dot over the target but I try to put my focus on that which isn't moving.  It's something that has to be practiced and applied to see if it works for you.
Ok, I have never tried this so I will start spending some time trying it.  Dryfiring sounds like a good place to start. Thanks.....

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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by 285wannab on Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:24 pm

So Larry, if you only shot 22s then you would keep a roll?  Shot my first match this week.  It's nice to get back into it.  Now I have a baseline to work up from.
I dryfired my friends Pardini SP a few times. My friend said it was set a 2lbs. and I believe him but it felt like pulling a lot less.  And so smooth.

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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by Jerry Keefer on Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:20 pm

285wannab wrote:
I dryfired my friends Pardini SP a few times. My friend said it was set a 2lbs.  it felt like pulling a lot less.  And so smooth.
Those Pardinis are nice....I think it's the best .22 available..
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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by 285wannab on Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:38 am

Can all two stage triggers be set up to feel like a Pardini?  And do roll triggers feel like two stage triggers?

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Re: roll vs crisp

Post by dan allen on Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:24 am

Ed Hall wrote:When you are shooting a crisp trigger, it can be difficult to "know" that the pressure on the trigger is truly increasing rather than just the tensions in the finger.  It is possible to apply increasing tension to both the flexors and the extensors without increasing the external force applied to the trigger.

When you are shooting a roll trigger, you can feel the movement of the sear on the hammer hooks and "know" that the action is progressing.
I have a roll trigger in my .22 (a Marvel on a Caspian lower) and Ed says it best. I like knowing that it is getting closer and it is time to knuckle down and keep the dot in the black. I have read many references to steering the dot with the trigger and I can't subscribe to that theory. It may be another way of saying the same thing but when the sear is moving I steer the dot with my hand and arm.

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