We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

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We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by desben on 10/3/2014, 8:57 am

A 2700 is a 3-gun event where you shoot a 900 with each gun. The 900 course is composed of 3 targets of each Slow (S), Timed (T) and Rapid (R).

You'd expect to shoot the course as
S-S-S-T-T-T-R-R-R, but instead, it is
S-S-S-T-R-T-T-R-R.

Some will argue the 3rd target is the beginning of the "National Match Course", which is S-T-R. That's fine on its own, but when shooting a 900, what's the point? Why aren't we shooting matches in the logical sequence? I'm an engineer and it bugs me.

It's Friday. I needed to get it off my chest. What a Face
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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by BE Mike on 10/3/2014, 9:16 am

If that bugs you, you should look at the NRA Indoor Sectional course of fire. 20 shots SF, 20 shots TF, 20 shots RF. All this is followed by the National Gallery Course of 30 shots (10 SF, 10 TF and 10 RF). Have a nice day! Twisted Evil
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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by mspingeld on 10/3/2014, 9:39 am

One possible reason is that the current sequence lets the shooters finish the long line strings and then move to the short line. If the National Match Course is an important component, there's no other place to put it without the back & forth.

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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by dronning on 10/3/2014, 9:51 am

How else are you going to get 5 matches out of a 900?

Dave
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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by Toz35m on 10/3/2014, 4:51 pm

easy shoot S-S-S-T-T-T-R-R-R.  Then the last 3 or first 3 become the NMC.    Not sure what the history is and why someone decided they wanted to slip in an extra 30 shot match into another match course of fire.  It bugged me when I started but I just shoot one pace. So for me it is really like S-S-S-R-R-R-R-R-R.
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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by C.Perkins on 10/3/2014, 5:56 pm

I see it as 16 matches total.
.22=SF/NMC/TF/RF/Agg
CF=SF/NMC/TF/RF/Agg
.45=SF/NMC/TF/RF/Agg
2700 Agg.

Clarence


P.S.
I know I am picking nits but I do believe that is how many there are for payouts ?
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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by CR10X on 10/3/2014, 6:05 pm

See Rule book for Courses of Fire.  I  believe the individual courses of fire to constitute scored or awarded Matches and payouts are determined by the Match Bulletin, see Singe Stage Course description.  So the payouts (awards) or aggregates can vary from Match to Match. 

The convention is to use the courses of fire or stages and arrangement of those courses or stages to make up the Match(s) consistent with the National Matches, however a match can establish its own course(s) of fire provided the convention for strings and timing are used.  Such as the courses of fire recognized for National Records or Classifications.  For example, Indoor Sectionals are shot with the same Matches as the Outdoor Nationals, but not in what Outdoor generally uses as the normal order (SF, TF, RF, NMC rather than SF, NMC, TF, RF).  Be sure to check the Match Bulletin.  See sections 4, 17.5 and 19.4. 

Sorry for not being clear earlier.

If you wish to shoot a match in a different order, simply have a match and give the type of match, courses of fire and awards schedule.  You can even specify the gun, caliber or class of shooters allowed, see section 1.7.  For your match a 2700 hundred could be 27, 10 shot slow fire strings with .22 only for invited High Master competitors.  One word of advise though, don't move bullseye shooter's cheese too far.

And the 2700 is the aggregate of only 12 fired matches as most shooters are accustomed to for Conventional Pistol matches.  (The national matches at Camp Perry for example).  If you say its the total of the aggregates and the fired matches, you come up with more than 2700.  However, you can have matches and awards that are not fired matches, but sum of some type and number of fired matches. (900 Aggregate Matches and Awards for example which makes the 16 awarded matches expressed below)  However, the 2700 score is the aggregate of only 12 fired matches (courses of fire) in most competitions. The number of awarded matches is another matter.


Last edited by CR10X on 10/4/2014, 1:54 pm; edited 7 times in total

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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by dronning on 10/3/2014, 6:06 pm

CR10X wrote:Sorry for repost.  You know that a 2700 is the agg of 12 matches, right?  Slow Fire Match,  National Match Course, Timed Fire,  and Rapid Fire with 3 different guns.  The rule book will tell you the stages or strings for each Match.  


There is also an aggregate for each 900 and an overall aggregate, making it 16 matches total, the 4 aggregates are non-fired but they are tracked for payouts.


- Dave

Sorry kind of a duplicate post.


Last edited by dronning on 10/3/2014, 6:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by farmboy on 10/3/2014, 6:18 pm

BE Mike wrote:If that bugs you, you should look at the NRA Indoor Sectional course of fire. 20 shots SF, 20 shots TF, 20 shots RF. All this is followed by the National Gallery Course of 30 shots (10 SF, 10 TF and 10 RF). Have a nice day! Twisted Evil
Yup, learned that one the hard way in my rookie year/1st ID Sectional.  Hung the wrong target because  I was shooting a regular 2700 in my head..   and not listening to the Match Director
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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by DavidR on 10/4/2014, 9:56 am

Its how the game is played, just like any other game it has instructions and rules to go by. As with anything else in life, you cant please everyone. It's our prerogative to Play the game, or find another game we like better.
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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by Russ OR on 10/4/2014, 10:39 am

Might be to make it more difficult to use a special pistol or revolver just for slow-fire. - - Can't change pistols (unless one fails) during a match.
900 = 4 Matches: Slow - NMC - Timed - Rapid. --

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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by Jerry Keefer on 10/4/2014, 8:52 pm

I've been in this game since 1964.. One of the challenges for sustained fire, is the ability to transition from Timed to Rapid and back again.. Timed fire is a score booster, IF, one has the abiltiy, trigger control, and mental discipline to use the time alotted. Few, except accomplished HMs do it.  Then having the same abiltiy to transition to the rapid fire stage, which is a completely difference set of fundamentals..It's actually easier to fire shoot Rapid fire during Timed Fire, and only train for that stage.  I do some coaching, and sustained fire training involves T-R-T-R-T-R-T-R-T-R, etc.. The shooter gains the skill, ability, and confidence to transition between the two without apprehension.
Jerry
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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by sixftunda on 10/4/2014, 9:39 pm

Jerry Keefer wrote:I've been in this game since 1964.. One of the challenges for sustained fire, is the ability to transition from Timed to Rapid and back again.. Timed fire is a score booster, IF, one has the abiltiy, trigger control, and mental discipline to use the time alotted. Few, except accomplished HMs do it.  Then having the same abiltiy to transition to the rapid fire stage, which is a completely difference set of fundamentals..It's actually easier to fire shoot Rapid fire during Timed Fire, and only train for that stage.  I do some coaching, and sustained fire training involves T-R-T-R-T-R-T-R-T-R, etc.. The shooter gains the skill, ability, and confidence to transition between the two without apprehension.
Jerry

That is an excellent way to practice! I am going to try that.  The transitions in sustained fire are difficult to master.  I wish I lived closer to you, I would pay for clinic time with you!
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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by Colt711 on 10/4/2014, 10:04 pm

From listening to old timers talk of more emphasis being placed on the team aspect until the 60's I am curious if the placement of the NMC's position in the 900 had something to do with that.

If the NM was not a needed for a (unfired) team score  the S-S-S, T-T-T, R-R-R sequence would have been more likely?

Ron Habegger

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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by CR10X on 10/5/2014, 7:48 am

Please check out section 7 and 17 of the rule book.  There are specific course of fire recognized for National Records and therefore most matches will use those courses of fire in the match bulletin.  There is not a course of fire recognized for record with 3, 10 shot slow fire strings, same for 6, 5 shot timed or rapid fire strings, so there is not a reason for a match director to create match in that order. (However they could, but then the competitors would not have a comparison against the recorded national record scores.) 

Outdoor matches are generally set up using the NMC after the SF course of fire, so the competitors would not be moving between the 50 and 25 yard lines twice in a 900 aggregate and still shoot the courses of fire recognized for national records.  

However for some reason, Open Sectionals and some indoor matches use a different format (SF, TF, RF, NMC), which is suspected to simply be copied from the order of the matches in the rule book section 17.  Since most of those are indoors from a fixed firing line or at a singe distance, change the order was not that much of an issue.

I'm not saying this for any other reason except to give some background and thoughts on the rules and why matches are generally run the way they are.  Most of these questions have been asked and discussed before, with each new generation of bullseye shooters.  10 years ago we were discussing the same thing on the bullsye list, 30 years ago they were probably discussing this in the bar at Put-In-Bay, 50 or 60 years ago in the tents after the match......

And we use one hand because if you didn't hold your horse with the other one it would probably run away and the Sargent would be very unhappy with you.  Point is, everything probably has some reason, even if it doesn't appear applicable today....

Cecil

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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by knightimac on 10/9/2014, 6:43 am

Hi

We shoot a REGISTERED REVERSE 2700 at our club, Leni-Lenape which started this summer.

That's right a match that starts with 45 rapid fire.

Cleared and approved by NRA beforehand.  As long as all courses of fire are shot the same by all at match, there is no problem.

REGARDS, Paul
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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by DavidR on 10/9/2014, 9:05 am

knightimac wrote:Hi

We shoot a REGISTERED REVERSE 2700 at our club, Leni-Lenape which started this summer.

That's right a match that starts with 45 rapid fire.

Cleared and approved by NRA beforehand.  As long as all courses of fire are shot the same by all at match, there is no problem.

REGARDS, Paul

So what is the reason you do this???
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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by Motorcycle_dan on 10/9/2014, 9:16 am

Why they are done in that order.  Each segment is a match.  Slow fire, NMC, Timed, and Rapid.  You are allowed only one alibi per match.  So you could have an alibi in the rapid fire portion of the NMC and another one on the next string in the timed fire match.  You could not have an alibi in the timed portion of NMC then again in the Rapid fire portion of the NMC.
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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by Motorcycle_dan on 10/9/2014, 9:21 am

I never thought about using the other hand to hold your horse.  Now it makes perfect sense; thanks Cecil. 
You going to be at Haw River for the seaon ending match Oct 18/19.  Hope to see you there.  I'm bringing Extra DR and EIC guns and ammo.  If you know someone who is sitting on the fence.

So the term "hospital" target.  Where did that come from?
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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by CR10X on 10/9/2014, 11:18 am

I never found a consistent story. Have a couple in my notes.

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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

Post by Colt711 on 10/9/2014, 2:41 pm

desben wrote:A 2700 is a 3-gun event where you shoot a 900 with each gun. The 900 course is composed of 3 targets of each Slow (S), Timed (T) and Rapid (R).

You'd expect to shoot the course as
S-S-S-T-T-T-R-R-R, but instead, it is
S-S-S-T-R-T-T-R-R.

Some will argue the 3rd target is the beginning of the "National Match Course", which is S-T-R. That's fine on its own, but when shooting a 900, what's the point? Why aren't we shooting matches in the logical sequence? I'm an engineer and it bugs me.

It's Friday. I needed to get it off my chest. What a Face

From what the older guys told me early matches were NMC's, 1 w/ ea gun, and possibly in the very early days there weren't 3 guns just a NMC.I understood matches were shot w/  .22 civilian, .38 spl  police and the .45 auto, military. At some time the matches were expanded and 3 cals used but  NMC's were commonly used by each. Apparenty there was desirability for more shots and as 6the NMC must be fired on consecutive strings the matches were fired much as they are now.

The above info was from 2 older shooters in our clubin the lat '60's, a Navy, and a Marine/Border Patrolman who had shot in competition years before and returned to BE in '68 when the local range became available. I aplologize for errors in memory, '68 or '70 to '14 is a good while.

Bythe way if a match is fired in reverse order is the 1st shot on a target the 10th? 1st string the last?

.02 cents worth?

Ron Habegger

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Re: We're shooting 2700s wrong. Why?

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