Attn. League shooters/administrators, Need help with scoring options for a new league

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Attn. League shooters/administrators, Need help with scoring options for a new league

Post by scrum derringer on 10/4/2014, 5:18 pm

I have been tasked with creating a new bullseye league at a new community college indoor firing range (with Turning Targets!) that I work part time at, (so I can shoot for free) which opened up earlier in the year. We are about a month and a half  away from starting, and I had an original plan of having shooters scoring the shooter to their left, as we do in outdoor matches.  I am also in a protective service league where we score our own targets, submit the scored targets, and have the targets re-checked by a score keeper. The point for that being, most of us cops can't count good without taking boots off as well as under-score our targets, as in not giving the proper higher score because the hole created by ball or hollow points didn't appear to break the line. This way of scoring  is conducive with the that league because we have varying schedules and are allowed to shoot on the honor system and on our own if we'd like.

Fast forward to the new range and league, we have 4 hours allotted one night of week for league shooting. With not knowing what kind of participation level we will get, time might be tight. We could have 20 shooters, or we could have well over 100 (meaning guns .22 and or CF). With that short of time, it may not be wise to score the target to the left, fill out the score card, submit the card, and toss the targets. The idea being, which is also being done elsewhere is: Shooter shoots the match, staples the all three targets together, scores their own off the line, and drops off the target to later be scored by a "score master." The benefit would be that it would save time on the line and keep the flow of shooters going through. The drawback would be someone would have to go through hundreds or thousands of targets.

So, League admins; what do you do and how do you like it. This league will most likely be new, to bullseye, shooters so there will be a learning curve at the beginning as well as training the other RSO's how to operate the target controls and verbally call the line properly. In addition, what do you use for record keeping. It appears that the League Access is not obtainable and the only route would be an excel format. This league will be individual only, no teams, and no handicaps for the inaugural season. The class level average will be lowered greatly, so the under 110 average people will only compete with like skilled shooters and not get frustrated and quit.

Thanks for your input.


Last edited by scrum derringer on 10/26/2014, 5:25 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Re: Attn. League shooters/administrators, Need help with scoring options for a new league

Post by dronning on 10/4/2014, 5:24 pm

In one of our winter leagues we save the targets and score after we have shot the complete match.  The person to your right still scores your target and fills out the score sheet just like on the line.  They give you time so you can then review your scored targets and protest if you want.  A score judge is available if a shot is disputed.

The scoring gets done when the next relay is shooting so there is no holdup.

- Dave


Last edited by dronning on 10/4/2014, 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add info)
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Re: Attn. League shooters/administrators, Need help with scoring options for a new league

Post by scrum derringer on 10/4/2014, 6:25 pm

dronning wrote:
The scoring gets done when the next relay is shooting so there is no holdup.

- Dave
 I should have mentioned that shooters will be able to stay on the line to shoot subsequent matches with their other gun (.22 or CF) as well as shoot ahead if they can not make the next weeks matches.  I would assume this is common elsewhere?. I also would think that each relay having to leave and return later would be tedious with moving equipment. Thus my dilemma.
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Need more shooters

Post by 45 MIKE on 10/4/2014, 7:04 pm

Were are you shooting. Do you need more shooters
I would have guys that would come to Milwaukee
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Re: Attn. League shooters/administrators, Need help with scoring options for a new league

Post by dronning on 10/4/2014, 7:07 pm

Our indoor matches are 1800 matches either 2 gun with a NMC or a 3 gun with no NMC and we shoot the complete 1800 (all guns) then the next relay shoots.  The targets are well marked with the match number and competitors name and lane number on them.

Your going to have to see how many "shoot through" but I'd try and keep those that are shooting through together say lanes 1 through 5 or whatever.  Targets need to be identified BEFORE they shoot as to what week they are for.

- Dave
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Re: Attn. League shooters/administrators, Need help with scoring options for a new league

Post by scrum derringer on 10/4/2014, 7:09 pm

Mike, it would be a long haul for you but you would give Jeff some competition!!. Here is the info -> WCTC Firing Range

The video is staged, obiously.


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Re: Attn. League shooters/administrators, Need help with scoring options for a new league

Post by Jdrickards on 10/15/2014, 6:52 pm

Recommend you do self scoring and run a handicapped league.  See metropistol.org for how we run the .22 league at the NRA HQ Range.

John Rickards
Fairfax, VA
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Re: Attn. League shooters/administrators, Need help with scoring options for a new league

Post by Guest on 10/15/2014, 10:22 pm

It would be a perfect place for a Zins-Moody Clinic.  You have classroom facilities right there.
...now if I could only talk our Technical College, CVTC, to open it's indoor range...

Chip

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Re: Attn. League shooters/administrators, Need help with scoring options for a new league

Post by Toz35m on 10/17/2014, 10:08 am

in our league we normally have people off the line waiting to shoot and they score targets after each string.  If there are more shooters than people waiting it is easy to score the targets of 2 shooters. Scoring for 3 is possible but you have to be quick.  Then the people who shot can score for the second relay.  If you only have people for one relay then I would shoot and score later.
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Re: Attn. League shooters/administrators, Need help with scoring options for a new league

Post by jwax on 10/26/2014, 7:32 am

I'm in no way connected to this product, but looks interesting for scoring targets quickly, and filing them:
Target Scan

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Re: Attn. League shooters/administrators, Need help with scoring options for a new league

Post by dronning on 10/26/2014, 8:33 am

jwax wrote:I'm in no way connected to this product, but looks interesting for scoring targets quickly, and filing them:
Target Scan

I got this APP when it was first released, it has improved with every release - good support. I bought it for scoring my Air Pistol targets and haven't tried it with any bullseye targets, It does work best when the picture is taken as shown on the video, it needs good contrast to be able to make out the shots, but that has gotten better with the improved cameras in the newer phones too.

I don't use it near as much anymore, because I bought a SIUS eTarget for home, I do use it at matches and it works well.

It works great for scoring my own targets, not sure how it might work trying to do multiple shooters targets.

- Dave
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Re: Attn. League shooters/administrators, Need help with scoring options for a new league

Post by farmboy on 10/26/2014, 12:24 pm

I tried the Target Scan app.  Found it to be not very accurate or fast.  You need a very specific light  brightness behind the target for it to score. If there are any doubles or ragged hole groups I found it to be not accurate at all. You can not score you BE target on the backer unless bright sun will shine through the holes.
You can manually place all the shots but that seems to defeat the purpose of being faster.

The one thing I did like about it (but one can still do faster themselves)was it showed the center of your group and gave windage and elevation adjustments to center group on the bull, but if I remember right you had to convert metric .  

It was kinda fun to play with for awhile but that wore off quickly for me
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Re: Attn. League shooters/administrators, Need help with scoring options for a new league

Post by Guest on 10/26/2014, 1:40 pm

farmboy wrote:I tried the Target Scan app.  Found it to be not very accurate or fast.  You need a very specific light  brightness behind the target for it to score. If there are any doubles or ragged hole groups I found it to be not accurate at all. You can not score you BE target on the backer unless bright sun will shine through the holes.
You can manually place all the shots but that seems to defeat the purpose of being faster.

The one thing I did like about it (but one can still do faster themselves)was it showed the center of your group and gave windage and elevation adjustments to center group on the bull, but if I remember right you had to convert metric .  

It was kinda fun to play with for awhile but that wore off quickly for me
Thanks, that was my experience as well.  With all the positive postings I was seeing around the net I thought I was just doing something incorrect.  I dumped that app months ago.

Chip

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Re: Attn. League shooters/administrators, Need help with scoring options for a new league

Post by scrum derringer on 10/26/2014, 5:19 pm

Just to steer this topic back to the original post, I am looking for the most efficient way of scoring for a league that might be small and easy, or large and busy.  We have 12 lanes and if we have only 8 shooters at a time we can score each other. If we have the same but with 30 people waiting in the common area, scoring each other will take a long time. Also, I am looking for the best way to keep record of the scores. Would just writing them down in a book and adding the scores up be fine, or using a program. This will be a 14 week gallery match (NM Course) offered in .22 and CF. I might have mentioned before that I don't understand how to use handicaps and doing teams, so this season will just be individual averages that will be in different classes. What is preferred by range management is that we do not save shot targets, which would be the case if shooters scored theirs and had a score keeper verify.

Being that this is going to be a first season, my main goal is that new shooters can get into the game, and the veteran shooters can sharpen their skills for outdoor, and not so much for cut throat competition(though awards will be given), so things might be on the honesty policy. I am not sure of any rampant dishonesty when scoring a person's own target. The only thing is like I mentioned before is that shooters will tend to underscore themselves. I have about another month and a half before the first night to figure this out.


So, if you (anyone: League admins and league shooters) could please quick answer:


1) Number of people in your league, both for CF and .22.
2) Time allotted for league shooting per week/day
3) Average time per National match course with targets that return to the line, and when you end a 10 minute slow fore early.
4) How do you score: shooter to the left or score your own. If scored on your own, are the targets verified by a second person(who and when done)
5) How do you submit your scores: On a score card, write it in a book, or write it on the target(which then are saved), or other?
6) How do you save scores for the league: Just write it down or use a computer program.
7) Do you have predominantly veteran bullseye shooters, new to BE shooters, or a healthy combo. 



Thank you again.

Here's a pick of a trial match I ran for the boss to see and to test the target system.

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Re: Attn. League shooters/administrators, Need help with scoring options for a new league

Post by Rob Kovach on 10/26/2014, 8:17 pm

email me at kovach_Robert@Hotmail.com and I will email you a copy of the spreadsheet we use for the team league we compete in.  I will have you talk to Chuck Flynn and Jon Norteman about how we run the handicap match.  I'm guessing we can see if the same formulas that we use for 1 handicap match might work for an entire league....it might be some work though.  In our team league we can complete a .22-CF-45 900 in about 1 hour.

As far as scoring goes, a range officer just collects the targets right after they are shot and the gallery grabs a target from the stack and scores it, then turns over to the secretary who punches it into the spreadsheet.

I also shoot in our club league doesn't do handicaps, but they just use a binder with all of the entrants in it.  Shooters score their own after the match and turn their scored targets in to the secretary.  The binder sheet records each weeks scores across the line with the NMC total on the right margin.  On the last week of the league, they simply total up the scores.  Shooter with the highest league total wins.
We usually shoot an NMC in less than 20 minutes on the firing line.

Maybe the way to administer your handicap is to wait until the last week of shooting, then use Chuck's formula to handicap it at the end--that way the shooters never know who is winning and who isn't.  You just need to lay out how the handicap is calculated beforehand.
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Re: Attn. League shooters/administrators, Need help with scoring options for a new league

Post by CFPlinker on 10/29/2014, 10:17 am

The league that I shoot at has the first week for sign-up and sight in. The second week each shooter gets a package of score sheets with his/her name on them along with the match number, classification, and whether the match is center fire or 22 along with 3 score sheets marked for practice.
Shooters exchange score sheets with their neighbor, score the neighbors target, and write the score on the target. The shooter then verifies the score on his/her target and, if it is correct, replaces the target or staples on a new center. If there is a disagreement about the score, the shooter and the scorer resolve it there. At the end of the match the shooter and the scorer sign the score sheet and the shooter puts it in the box for them in the ready room.
It normally takes 30 minutes to run a relay for 20 shooters. If there are several alibis during a match it will take a little longer. Our league has about 30-35 shooters about half of which shoot both 22 and centerfire. The range is opened for the first relay at 4:30 and we are cleaned up and out by 8:30. Not all relays are full which is to be expected since we shoot on Mondays and not all shooters get there at the same time due to work and home schedules and activities.

The match director collects the score sheets and enters them into his program. The program calculates a running average as each weeks score is entered. There is a print out for each shooter with their scores and averages after weeks 5, 10, and 15. We shoot for 20 weeks but only require 15 scores to be eligible for league awards. If you shoot 16 or more weeks, your lowest score will be dropped when calculating the average for league awards. All scores are reported to the NRA for classification.

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Re: Attn. League shooters/administrators, Need help with scoring options for a new league

Post by Toz35m on 11/1/2014, 10:35 am

we have 8 teams in my league and maybe about 60-80 people in the league.  we have a match once a month and 3 teams show up at the range and you shoot a 900 vs each team.  This means everyone shoots 2 900's.  We follow the standard times.  10 mins for slow and if we all finish in 7 mins we pull targets and give them to the people not shooting and start on the next target.  We the first relay is done everybody gets off the line and then a fresh set of bodies gets ready to shoot.

1. When you pull your first target you place your score card on top.  Both should have your name and team and what team your are shooting against.  
2. The person scoring your target writes the scores on the score card and some people also put it on the target also.  
3. When shooting is done the scoring person signs the score card and gives it to the shooter to verify and check math.  
4. The shooter should check to make sure they agree with the scoring and the numbers are correct.
5. If the shooter does not agree with how a shot was scored they need to work it out with the person who scored the target.  If for some reason they do not agree people look for a 3rd party to settle it.  It normally does not go past this stage.  The benefit of the doubt should go the shooter.
6. Once the shooter is happy with the numbers they give the score card to the person who is logging scores for the day.  Our league is using paper but this could be done on a laptop just as easy.
7. Team captains send the results into a central person who records in a spreadsheet all of the results and then sends them out to the captains.

We have a wide range of experience in the league.
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