OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

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OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by CR10X on 10/20/2014, 6:54 pm

First topic message reminder :

From the number of posts with general questions (and opinions) from new shooters and not so new ones I've come to a disturbing conclusion.  Since I started bullseye shooting some time ago, there appears to have been an unnoticed but slow decline of that species known as "Old Fart Bullseye Shooter" or OFBS.   

When I started shooting, there were a number of models and various vintages to choose from and they were somewhat needed to guide the new shooter through the undocumented and strange evolution into a "Bullseye Shooter".  The proper selection, care and feeding of one or more of the OFBS species would provide a substantial amount of useful (and most times considerably opinionated) material and information.  For the most part, in the pre-internet era, they were the holder of the information and opinions needed to get into the bullseye sport.  On the other hand, the typical OFBS may also have been the holder of another type of "BS" depending on the subject at hand.  Therefor the selection of a OFBS was crucial to the development of the beginning bullseye shooter. Overall however, the OFBS was the backbone of developing bullseye shooters throughout the country.  Sadly, from the number and types of questions posted on this list and elsewhere, it appears the OFBS supply is depleted or in serious decline.
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Now don't get me wrong, the selection of an OFBS and his new shooter should not be taken lightly.  The new shooter would be engulfed from all sides with various shooting types, intent on parting their select brand of wisdom, and the selection of the first OFBS was often a random event.  As the beginning shooter became more adept at shooting, scoring, reloading and listening, they would typically graduate to the next level OFBS as needed or available.  The progression through the various classes would generally see the bullseye shooter add another OFBS to his or her collection.  And the OFBS would generally have another bullseye shooter coming along as well. 

Now this was not a one way relationship at all.  Both parties would see benefits from the relationship, learning about the sport, rules and competitions and providing support and assistance to each other throughout the years.  I witnessed many shooters helping their shooting partners navigate matches, carrying gun boxes for older shooters, watching out for them at the bigger matches and Perry, providing rides, guns and even scoring so they would not have to make the trip to the line.  Lifelong relationships across generations were developed, and I got to watch and be a part of that.   At the time, I did not realize what was happening.  And we, as bullseye shooters, may be missing the decline of a former integral part of out sport.   I sincerely hope not and have penned this short note to bring it to our attention.

Now, all joking aside, to my former OFBSs, Tom Burch, Bob Way, John Torres, and all the others that took me in hand and showed the the ropes, how to score, marking brass, what leg point are, scoring refires, etc. etc, etc.   Thank you from the bottom of my heart.   Hopefully, I can become as good a OFBS as you were to me.   Thanks again.

Cecil Rhodes

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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by jmdavis on 10/23/2014, 11:03 am

People learn by reading, seeing, hearing and doing. Having someone with the ability to coach one, greatly helps one's development.
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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by beeser on 10/23/2014, 5:53 pm

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Last edited by beeser on 10/24/2014, 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by Sa-tevp on 10/23/2014, 7:12 pm

One of the aspects of Bullseye shooting that I like is the data collection and analysis that is needed to perform well, as well as being brutally honest with one's self. Having a mentor or a coach is essential for keeping concerns in perspective. As a beginner a topic may appear as a huge problem, but a mentor or a coach can show it as minor issue to work through with the proper tools or technique. Having taught people to analyze and troubleshoot complex systems, often one has to let the individual exhaust their path before they are ready to accept a different view of their situation. Few people are flexible enough to adapt quickly to a new viewpoint and often ignore information that doesn't support what they want or expect to see.

Also on the theme, I avoid experts. Not the NRA classification, but the people that know it all and have it all figured out. They are dinosaurs that cannot learn anything new, stuck in their small world. They follow dogma instead of data, and have a closed mind. A good mentor or coach is learning even while teaching, learning along with the person they are teaching. If they are really good they end up only a few steps ahead of the student.

I think it would be foolish to repeat all of the mistakes that were made before me when I can learn from them and stand on the shoulders of those that taught me. How else would you honor them?
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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by CR10X on 10/23/2014, 7:40 pm

Cecil 

“Choose to have fun….
Fun creates enjoyment….
Enjoyment invites participation…
Participation focuses attention….
Attention promotes insight….
Insight generates knowledge….
Knowledge facilitates action….
Action yields results….”


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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by C.Perkins on 10/23/2014, 8:52 pm

Well said Cecil.

I never had a coach to teach me everything, but I did and do have an OFBS that answered my questions and watched what I was doing and gave me pointers which really helps instead of trying to figure everything out on your own.
You are right that the answer is in the mirror.
In my honest opinion, I never would have made master without the help from Steve Reiter.

Clarence
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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by beeser on 10/23/2014, 9:53 pm

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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by Rob Kovach on 10/24/2014, 12:07 am

It's bugging me how this is becoming a tit-for-tat. 

This concept of mentorship and what is "rewarding", "fun", or "enjoyable" to a bullseye shooter is a matter of perspective.  To one shooter, getting the master or high-master classification is what is rewarding.  To another it might be analyzing equipment, different guns, and ammo development.

Which perspective is wrong?  NEITHER ONE.

I'm to the point in my journey that most of the analysis is over.  I know what works for me in my little world.  I am an extremely analytical person, and I wondered about all sorts of facts and factors. I wanted to figure it all out, and the shooting was part of the scientific method--the experiment phase of the process.  The experiments to prove or disprove the theories I cooked up in my mind about all of my observations about this sport.

After I was running low on stuff to analyze, and my shooting was getting better, I started analyzing why I shot awesome one day and crappy the next. When Justin Georgio from the USMC pistol team (a mentor) taught me some mental distraction tips, I discovered how important a clear mind is for shooting good scores.

I believe that Master/High Master shooters like Cecil know that this analysis is detrimental to the clear mind that is needed for top scores.

When I was a new shooter like Beeser, seeing the scenery and taking in all of the analysis that comes with experiencing something new was part of the enjoyment.  I'm just glad there was a mentor like Justin Georgio to help me get off of that path when that scenery was getting old for me.

I hope my story can get rid of the notion that any opinion in this thread can't be wrong or right, but instead a matter of perspective.
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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by kwixdraw on 10/24/2014, 1:51 am

Sounds like time to read Miyamoto Musashi, "The Five Rings" again. He advised against placing much importance on fancy or prized equipment (swords).
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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by CR10X on 10/24/2014, 6:52 am

Recommended reading Brian Enos - Shooting from Within

As I've said before:

Load more than you clean.
Shoot more than you load.
Train more than you shoot.
And think more than you train.

Best thought - Keep the trigger ahead of the sights.  

What my mentor told me that started it all:  If you're going to keep shooting outside the black, you might as well use cheaper bullets.


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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by dronning on 10/24/2014, 8:06 am

CR10X wrote:
What my mentor told me that started it all:  If you're going to keep shooting outside the black, you might as well use cheaper bullets.

Now that is some sage advice! LOL 

- Dave
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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by beeser on 10/24/2014, 8:44 am

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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by Rob Kovach on 10/24/2014, 9:05 am

Beeser,

Cecil wrote:What my mentor told me that started it all:  If you're going to keep shooting outside the black, you might as well use cheaper bullets.

Beeser, the way this thread has read to me is you've been responding to this thread like it is about you personally, and it reads like you are arguing or that it was something you didn't want to hear.  This argumentative tone has got to stop.  If you don't agree with Cecil's post, just read it and move on to one of the other thousands of posts.  Please don't argue with opinions and theories that can't be wrong.

I agreed with most of what was said in this thread--but following these thoughts aren't the only way to success in bullseye shooting.
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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by CR10X on 10/24/2014, 10:39 am

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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by jmdavis on 10/24/2014, 11:00 am

I've learned things from alot of OFBS. Doug Bronnenberg (sight alignment, trigger control, how to develop a grip, front sight focus, loan of guns and equipment), Lou Seigel (sight alignment, front sight focus and the use of a dotter for dryfire), Tom (front sight focus, trigger control,  how to judge stance and grip) and Elizabeth (sight alignment, front sight focus and tips for maintaining good followthrough) Gathright  have all directly helped me to get started. I appreciate all of their help. 

The past few months I have been doing a coached practice on the first and third Wednesdays of the month with Tom and Elizabeth and the results have been really good. I'm still working on my grip and focus in dryfire, but the 95-5 that I shot the other night in timed fire practice (with a 50-4 for the last 5) really made me feel good.
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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by Rob Kovach on 10/24/2014, 12:08 pm

Cecil,

Please don't delete this. These thoughts are important.
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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by Jack H on 10/24/2014, 1:01 pm

Cecil: ""It ain't the arrow, its the Indian."  What I learned is its not the Indian, but how he applies himself."

Absolutely true.
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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by DavidR on 10/24/2014, 4:48 pm

Great posts Cecil please leave evrything, nothing pleases everyone but hopefully many will understand as i do where your coming from
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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by CR10X on 10/24/2014, 6:12 pm

My deepest apologies if I offended beeser to the extent that I apparently did.  
Sorry Rob, but I would not want anything to remain on the list if it created such an issue for anyone.  So I will withdraw as well.  
Besides, I've pretty much said it all before.  
Hate to have someone not participate on the list or on the line because of anything I did or typed. 
Good Shooting.

Cecil

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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by dronning on 10/24/2014, 6:25 pm

Cecil,

I believe beeser's withdrawal was due to the warning he was given about the tone of his posts and not just in this thread.

Not your issue, PLEASE don't leave you have too much to offer.

- Dave
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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by Rob Kovach on 10/24/2014, 7:33 pm

Dear everyone,

beeser edited his own posts to read only "---" it is not my doing at all.  He voluntarily scrubbed many of his posts for reasons unknown to me.

I find it quite unfortunate because so many of us shared our perspectives with beeser on so many topics that are now impossible to share with others because the original question has been destroyed.

I am trying my best to keep this forum running well, and want to assure all of you that I will continue to do my best to maintain the appropriate decorum without alienating anyone.

With so many personalities (mine included) it's difficult to do.  I am committed to maintaining the positive impact this forum has for our sport.

now watch this....I'm going to bring this post on topic:

If that's my roll as an OFBS, I will continue to do my best.

-Rob
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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by dronning on 10/24/2014, 11:25 pm

Great OFBS example/story about John Gemmill over on Tony's Blog
http://tonybrong.blogspot.com/2014/10/john-gemmill.html

I think John could be the poster child of an OFBS.
- Dave
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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by CR10X on 10/25/2014, 8:29 am

Guys, I'm not leaving, just running a match today.   However, I do have some self imposed guidelines for posting Dialogue.   Sorta like a bro code.  If one party removes their part of a discussion,  I think its appropriate the other party do as as well.  It just seems more gentlemanly that way.

As a guy who kept me from messing up a lot when I was younger told me.  " I've lived long enough to come to grips with most of my inner demons and regrets.  I've gotten rid of or outlived most of my enemies.   Why would I want to start making more of those now?"  He was a great guy.

Good shooting to you all.

Cecil

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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by Sa-tevp on 10/25/2014, 10:35 am

The Tony's Bullseye Blog post also mentions the side benefit of manual scoring is the chance for shooters to learn important details of the sport during the scoring process.

Who hasn't picked up some tips on shooting from a more experienced shooter during scoring?
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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by dronning on 10/25/2014, 11:32 am

Sa-tevp wrote:The Tony's Bullseye Blog post also mentions the side benefit of manual scoring is the chance for shooters to learn important details of the sport during the scoring process.

Who hasn't picked up some tips on shooting from a more experienced shooter during scoring?

That's the reason I don't want to go to eTargets, I don't care if they turn or not! There IS value is having a High Master score your target and give you encouragement. Or not make you feel like an idiot when you cross fire not one but all 10 rounds on his target in slow fire! - yes I did that. Go BIG!

- Dave
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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

Post by Axehandle on 10/25/2014, 4:56 pm

Used?  Unused?  Get out and rub elbows with the best you can find!  Spent the morning with Charlie Alexander on the left and Phillip Hemphill on the right.  Lots to be learned just from standing between those two.. Very Happy

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Re: OFBS - Gone or Simply Unused?

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