.45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

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.45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:27 am

One of the fixed powder slides knocking around the shop throws a very light charge of 700-X and though it's less than what Hodgdon/IMR had published, I was confident that stuff burns so fast there would be no problem getting the 200-gr H&G slugs out the barrel.

How's 680 fps sound?

Some empties were landing on my forehead. First group, I punched or triggernotstraighbacked two shots to the left, and the 5 were an unimpressive 5.6 inches at 50 yards but three of them were clustered in 1.17 inches and the best four were in 3.47.

A SWAG of 10 clicks up put two shots cutting deep in the X-ring, two in the middle of the 10 touching each other (again at 9:00...gotta think the shot process through better even when benching it with two hands I guess), and the last one cutting deep in the X-ring again this time low.  Three in the X were 1.73 inches, the best 4 were in 3.12 and the whole 5-round group was exactly 3.3 inches.

One more test to verify and keep my trigger finger well behaved and such, and I just might confirm a surprisingly mild keeper of a load. Same powder bar with W-231 (wonder if I will EVER see that stuff again) sends them out just fast enough to make IPSC Major IIRC.

So, how wimpy are people running their wadgun loads with that "heavier" recoiling 200-gr bullet? I know my Dad used to sometimes shoot W-W 185-gr MCWCs, but I have no idea how light they were. Think they were called "Mid-Range" loads??? Or was that for 50-yard loads?

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by sixftunda on Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:38 am

I don't have a chronograph but I have been playing with short line loads on my Frame mount gun KC Crawford set up for me.  I have gotten down to 3.1 grains of BE for the short line with a 200 grain Penn Bullet.  The old school HM's were using 3.0 with a H&G 78 bullet which is what the Penn is.  They were using iron sights which is no different than a frame mount with the exception of the dot. 
With 700x, I have loaded at 3.0 grains with the 200 and given the way the recoil felt, I think I could go lower than that.
I haven't tried any of these at the 50 yard line and I doubt I ever will.  IMO I think they are too slow for a good repeatable, consistent group.

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by Jon Eulette on Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:04 pm

I ran out of BE powder and just tried 700x for the first time.  I had some 200gr bullets I'm also using for the first time. I tried 4.0 gr for 50 yds and 3.4 for 25 yd load. I was using my 6" longslide that I built and have been shooting for about 7 years. I have only used BE and Dupont P5066 in this pistol. The BE was in a 3# yellow keg, so I know it was old, but not sure how old. Both these powders gave me soft recoil. I've loaded down to 3.0 gr with both powders. Also currently using Aimpoint Micro, but shot 30 mm Ultra Dot on this pistol for about 5 years. So yep longslide with slide mount functioning with 3.0 gr charges. We'll back to 700x.  The 4.0 gr charge seemed fairly warm and snaps pistol much harder than the BE powder. The 3.4 gr charge was almost indecernible from 4.0 gr charge. Really confused me that 0.6 gr less was still recoil ing so hard. I'm going to try 3.0 gr next. I mentioned this to Greg Walloch and he was wondering if the longer barrel and burn rate was attributed to the similarities of felt recoil between both loads? Everyone else I know who shoots 700x is using 5" barrel. Any thoughts on this?
Jon

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by paw080 on Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:07 pm

sixftunda wrote:I don't have a chronograph but I have been playing with short line loads on my Frame mount gun KC Crawford set up for me.  I have gotten down to 3.1 grains of BE for the short line with a 200 grain Penn Bullet.  The old school HM's were using 3.0 with a H&G 78 bullet which is what the Penn is.  They were using iron sights which is no different than a frame mount with the exception of the dot. 
With 700x, I have loaded at 3.0 grains with the 200 and given the way the recoil felt, I think I could go lower than that.
I haven't tried any of these at the 50 yard line and I doubt I ever will.  IMO I think they are too slow for a good repeatable, consistent group.


Hi, I totally agree with Six. My Timed/Rapid Fire load is X-Ring accurate.  I've been using the load as

suggested by a High Master shooter since 1973. Yes,  I'm old school. He suggested 3.2gr BE using

an H&G # 68.  I ended up dropping a tenth to 3.1 gr BE and now crimp between .467" and .469".

I get 10 shot X-Ring groups with anything in that crimp  range.  Speaking of old school, I was using

the H&G 130 for the slow fire strings, and .462"-.463" crimp, plus a bit more BE. 

My 3.1 gr load will not group into the 10 ring at 50 yds.

Tony


Last edited by paw080 on Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : mas...)

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by kwixdraw on Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:03 pm

I loaded some starline cases with 4.4 gr of 700-x behind a home cast RCBS 185 SWC lubed with white label 2500+  The load is certainly on the hotter side compared to what others were shooting but bench resting that load, it shoots pretty consistently with 5 shots touching. I have cut the charge back to 3.8 and it feels much lighter. I have not benched that load but my gut feeling is that it does not shoot as tight as the hotter load. One other thing I noticed about the 700-x. It seems to be sensitive to static or maybe humidity. If I continue a reloading session in the morning after leaving everything set up from the previous night, I usually find some variation in charge weight without changing the powder measure adjustment. Since relocating from CA to TN I have noticed this with other powders as well. I have chased my tail trying to get the weighed charge to come out just right but in the end I find that the best thing to do is not to leave much powder in the hopper and fill it when you are going to be doing a goodly number of rounds. I wipe the powder measure with a used dryer sheet and cycle the measure a dozen or so times before I weigh the charges. If I don't do this I find a big jump in weight. sometimes .5 gr without changing the setting on the measure. It will settle back down if I leave the measure setting alone and discard the first dozen or so charges. 231 and Titegroup do not seem to be as sensitive to this for me. I have checked the measure carefully for mechanical issues and I cleaned it thoroughly so Im left thinking its environmental and related to the powder. Im not sure if this had some effect on the lighter loads as that is when I discovered the issue, loading them. I do know that the largest % of them was accurately loaded with a weighed charge of 3.8 gr after I got through triple checking everything. I crimp all my loads to .469.


Last edited by kwixdraw on Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:07 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added crimp info)

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:39 pm

Have to double check but I think this one is 3.62 gr of 700-X and the other modified one was throwing 4.1.

The 4.1 load went 758 fps for two different 5-round strings.  Will look at whether QuickLOAD tracks this using the fastest ADI powder in its database. They still don't list 700-X (I've heard one rumor why but won't repeat it). Nevermind, just checked and it's back to using Bullseye to match results. In 9mm the ADI AS 30 tracks 700-X better...

680 fps AND good groups at 50!

Any idea what those 3.1 gr loads were doing for velocity?  It it works like BE that would be like 589 fps. Bunny phart loads if there ever were any!

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by 243winxb on Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:07 pm

45 acp - Using Bullseye- 3.5 gr Speer 200gr   665 fps  / 211 cast 680 fps.   Go to 3.8 for 50 yds  Speer 200 gr 714 fps / 211 cast 724 fps.  Go to 4.4 gr Speer 200 gr 799 fps / 211 gr cast 799 fps also.   From my old data in 1979 when i had a chronograph. Currently using 3.8 gr Bullseye with 200gr cast in Starline brass & WLP.

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by LenV on Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:56 pm

I use the 3.8 gr Bullseye load also behind a 200 gr LSWC. I just want to caution anyone using the 700x that reduced loads in 700X just plain don't meter well. The powder hangs up in the hopper if you restrict its flow very much. That is a personal observation from someone that had to pull a whole batch after getting some squibs from this powder.

Len

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:19 pm

Oldmaster64:

Yes, the large fluffy flakes foul up your fine metering and probably can produce flyers. When checking the stuff out with the Lil' Dandy powder measure, I noticed that the smaller diameter metering holes gave erratic weights. Number 7 or 8 is where it gets reliable with 700-X. The #5 rotor with its small hole threw between 1.5 and 2.12 grains, which is probably too light for anything other than .38 S&W type loads anyway and way too erratic for anything I would do.

Waldport, eh? Pretty sure I drove through there one ill-fated Christmas break with who I thought was my fiancee at the time. No real regrets on the trip-her Dad was great and relatives too. It was three months later things fell apart. Twice. We were both the forgiving type you might say.

Anyway, 243WinXB--you had a chrono in 1979? The units I read about back then either used circuits printed on paper cards, or maybe the newest power-sucking photoelectric screens and some had electronics that didn't even give a direct speed readout...You must have been a serious "early adopter"!

All, I patched up the target last night and saw that I was misremembering the holes but not the measurements. The two left were in the 9 ring (you can't get 3.3 inches left of the X and stay in the 10...) and that last shot was an inner 10 that did not quite cut the X ring.  But on the first five-round group there where three that would have all fit almost entirely inside the X ring.

Can't wait to re-test this load to verify it works. These results restored my faith in my iron sight shooting, as the accuracy testing with 9mm remains, um, frustrating with one or two rays of hope every time I test a batch of loads.

Another thing about 700-X: make sure the powder measure is totally free from any gunk. My Lil' Dandy #9 rotor was throwing almost exactly the same charge as the #8 until I checked and found a trace of lube was keeping about .4 grain of powder stuck to the sides. Hard to see that in a black hole made out of blackened steel without taking the whole rotor out.

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by 243winxb on Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:16 pm

Chrono in 1979- Yes, it was new at the time using Sky Screens. Four numbers converted to fps. I sold it after i check all my loads. The new owner shot the sky screen on the first shot, so he told me.  I shot over the older  timers that were card board with a copper wire running thru it to break the circuit.  I didnt own the old style.  I use 700X also , but have no data.

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:16 pm

Saw one of those 4-digit LED/plasma/incandesent? readout units about 2001-2002 or so. The guy was just warming up to buying something more modern...

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by DavidR on Mon Oct 27, 2014 11:06 am

3.5 be with a 200 hg68 is a good load for frame mount or iron sights.

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by John on Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:27 am

I tried 3 gr. of Bullseye ---very accurate at 25 yards---10 shots in 1 inch BUT my 1911 would not function reliably even with a light recoil spring.  I can't afford jams---loose too many points when I can't clear immediately.  After a few practice sessions I switched to 3.2 gr. of Bullseye with the #68 bullet and had no further function problems in T & R.  John

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:44 am

Verification of 3.6 700-X at 680 fps failed. The 758 fps load does better. Going to try one that might go 735 next. Modifying one of the slides got out of hand...

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by Virgil Kane on Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:09 am

Since reading this thread I just had to try the 3.1 grains of Bullseye with a 200 grain swaged Magnus SWC. Functioned perfect in my Clark LS with a slide mounted 30mm UD on it. Chronograph readings were low 609 fps to a high 629 fps. I increased my crimp from .470 to .467 and that seemed to help combustion of the BE powder. I only ran 50 rounds through my gun and have not tried this load in a match but it does seem like an interesting idea, recoil is almost non existent in my Clark. BTW I'm running a 14# spring in my Long Slide. I think that all the weight from the extended slide length and the weight of the 30mm UD help carry the slide through the cycling process. I'll have to try limp wristing this load and see if I still get the same reliability. Not that I would shoot that way but just to see if slowing the slide down some will cause FTF or FTE with this light load. At 50 feet all shots were in one ragged hole. Might make a good 25 yard Timed and Rapid Fire load.


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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by Jon Eulette on Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:39 am

For years now I've been using 3.0 to 3.3 gr BE for shortline in my longslide.  Extremely low recoil and makes shooting the shortline a piece of cake. Personal best of 200 -18x with this combination. Recoil gives away points! Everyone who is stuck on using longline loads for shortline are giving away many points. To many shooters have mentality that shooting most accurate load is what produces best scores. Not so! If you can shoot 4-5 days a week you can probably do it,  but if 1-2 times a week you'll never master the heavier recoil.

Also if your barrel doesn't lock up correctly (poorly fit) you will have more recoil even with lighter loads! Barrel is supposed to slow down slide velocity,  so if not fit properly slide will come out of battery to fast. That's why many pistols shoot good from Ransom Rest but not from hand!
Jon

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by Jerry Keefer on Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:34 am

Jon Eulette wrote:For years now I've been using 3.0 to 3.3 gr BE for shortline in my longslide.  Extremely low recoil and makes shooting the shortline a piece of cake. Personal best of 200 -18x with this combination. Recoil gives away points! Everyone who is stuck on using longline loads for shortline are giving away many points. To many shooters have mentality that shooting most accurate load is what produces best scores. Not so! If you can shoot 4-5 days a week you can probably do it,  but if 1-2 times a week you'll never master the heavier recoil.

Also if your barrel doesn't lock up correctly (poorly fit) you will have more recoil even with lighter loads! Barrel is supposed to slow down slide velocity,  so if not fit properly slide will come out of battery to fast. That's why many pistols shoot good from Ransom Rest but not from hand!
Jon
YES.....!!!!!  I agree with every word... It's insane to shoot the Marine Corp / Zero Nosler load at shortline.. But you would be surprised at the number of folks that do...In fact, I am not a fan of it at longline..

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by Rob Kovach on Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:09 pm

Well, that sold me.  I'm using my long line load for all stages, and I clean short line targets somewhat regularly in practice, but never in match conditions....

I will try the 3.0gr and see how that works for me.

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:24 pm

Testing can be a booger.

Velocities started below the other slide's last readings for the first 5, then jumped ABOVE them for the second five, and with my first-quality cast bullets both shot barely tight enough but with a very wide off-call flyer for each group... 9 ring accuracy again.

THEN I shoot 5 experimental ones, everything else the same except my second-string cast bullets, and 4 out of those 5 went 22 fps faster than the old "fast" load and into 2.8 (? gotta check, it WAS less than the 10-ring) with a semi-called flyer low for a total of 5.5 inches at 50 yards...

I'm going to have to lube up some more bullets now and RE-check with some more attention to both my bench/grip technique and my attention to visual detail.

One bright spot from all this is that I now know for sure how far 10 clicks on the Micro sight moves the group at 50 yards...I'm positive that the windage screw goes the same distance, and once things settle down I'll be dialed in to my choice of the left side or the right side of the X.

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How Slow Can/Do you Go

Post by Mark Patterson on Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:09 pm

I've been loading 3.4 BE for several years with a Zero 185 LSWC and also 200 LSWC from Star with a frame mount and the pistol has Accurails so it's really tight and smooth at the same time and it works fine and will shoot 1.5" @ 50 yds off sand bag 5 shot groups..If I do my part this load will shoot Xring @ 50 yds nicely..and will obviously shoot real good @ 25 yds as well..Look back in the loads from the past and you will see some of the guys back then shot 3.4 BE..Have fun..Testing loads is more than 1/2 the fun..

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:36 am

Well, 3.8-3.9 of 700-X is the winner in this 1911.  Shot a 2.25" and followed it up with a rushed 3.25" group, every shot on call, no flyers, no mysteries and still a few (fewer!) cases bouncing off my forehead.

Might try a lighter spring before I look at bending on the extractor. Maybe. Will look up again how to get ejection more sideways than up--that would probably be enough.  Originally a USGI WWII gun sold through the DCM, ejection port not lowered but everything else for accuracy done. It ain't shiny but it shoots!

No velocities because the screens & tripod blew over and I had very little time...Estimated at 730.

I now feel free to fill up that pile of empty brass!

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by tierney on Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:09 am

I have tried all kinds of variations of 45 loads and have settled on 4.2g of bullseye with an H+G 68 200g SWC for the shortline.  I rarely have failure to function problems in matches and the heavier softball recoil just rides up nicely to the left and i roll right back in for the next shot.  The aggravation of a refire or fooling with springs is not worth using light loads for me. With lighter loads or with some shotgun powders the recoil tends to come straight back into your hand rather than rolling left and I have more difficulty recovering.  However, saying this, I know a couple of top Maine shooters who swear by Titewad and they consistently shoot 190's at 50 with it.  At 50 I prefer the Zero 185 JHP with 4.8 of bullseye.  I could not get titewad to group out of a ransom rest with any of my weapons except the longslide.  I shoot a lot of softball bullseye matches with good results (2650+) but I have had more success by far at Perry and other matches with hardball.

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by knightimac on Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:36 pm

Hi Fellas

I must say this has been one of the most helpful threads for me.  I always test exhaustively for accuracy from sandbags.  4.0 or 4.2 bullseye are most accurate of mid-range loads.  These are what I normally use with no alibis. However, I recently loaded up some rounds using 3.5 Bullseye and wala!  I was drilling much better scores at 25 yards in practice.  Now I must work on making my gun more reliable by changing out to lighter springs as I had several FTF and FTE.

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by Al on Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:12 pm

knightimac wrote:Hi Fellas

 However, I recently loaded up some rounds using 3.5 Bullseye and wala!  I was drilling much better scores at 25 yards in practice.  Now I must work on making my gun more reliable by changing out to lighter springs as I had several FTF and FTE.
Knightimac,

I can't speak for the Bullseye load as I use Clays & WST.  Judging from the velocities and amounts used I'm thinking Clays and Bullseye must be very very close as my sweet spots coincide with the BE loads.

I used to use 3.5 Clays for all the short line work and 4.2 WST for long line.  When I used a 13# spring (slide mounted dot), my last 2 strings of rapid fire in the 45 stage wouldn't lock the slide back.  For the winter, indoors-50 ft,  I just changed to an 11# spring and didn't worry about it. 

This year I changed to 3.8 Clays and just kept the 13# spring in all the time without any failures to lock back on the last round.
Al

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

Post by GrumpyOldMan on Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:44 am

The load I settled on clocks at 710 fps.

Switching from two hands in a firm but not really crush grip to one-handed threw the group out of the 10 ring and up into the middle of the 6-ring right at 12:00. At least I don't have to worry about windage shifts...??? As was posted elsewhere this week, "click boldly!"

And it looks like 4 clicks down for the short line, but will double-check with JBM Ballistics for a sanity check.

IIRC, 710 is about the same as .38 full wadcutters, which I rarely use.

I'm gathering from some of the posts here that really, really soft shortline loads in the wadgun sort of fell from near-universal use sometime ago...??? But some of us here have re-discovered the joys of using them.

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Re: .45 200-gr LSWC: How Slow Can/Do YOU Go?

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