Do you scope each shot?

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Do you scope each shot?

Post by dstates on 12/9/2014, 12:54 pm

I had a good night shooting yesterday, but something I did brings about a question.  I searched the archives for something about scoping each shot, but I only found scope equipment type threads so here we go...

I've been close to cleaning a timed/rapid fire target for the last 9 months or so.  I've had numerous 98's and 99's.  Well, last night I was shooting slowfire and trying not to focus on the score during slow fire, but a few times that I looked in the scope to check my call, my call was confirmed that I sent a less than ideal shot down range.  My brain can't help but do some of the math like "that first shot was a 7 so I can't do better than a 97".  Anyway, I ended up with a decent target in slow fire and was glad to see some 10's which do help my confidence.  Then in timed fire, all five shots in the first string I called good in my head so I didn't check in the scope even though I had a few seconds left.  I ended up cleaning my very first target.  I don't think that not looking was the deciding factor in a clean target, but it made me think about my decision.

So here is the question... Do you guys check each shot in slow fire in the scope, just the first couple to check zero, or none at all?  What about timed fire, do you sneak a peek at the first five shots?

Doug

Oh, and here is a picture of the 100  Smile

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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by DavidR on 12/9/2014, 1:02 pm

slow fire I scope a lot out of habit as we shoot at several different ranges thru the season and the zeros are different, at 25 usually just the first string of timed to again confirm zero or again if I have to adjust the dot, after zeroed I don't see the need to do it.
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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by Rob Kovach on 12/9/2014, 1:35 pm

Is checking the scope part of your shot process?  You do have a written shot process right?
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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by mspingeld on 12/9/2014, 1:56 pm

I was habitually jumping to the scope but recently stopped. I notice that not looking at the scope helps me focus on the next shot immediately instead of the shot that already went, which I can't change. After confirming zero, there's nothing in the scope that can help you.

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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by Jack H on 12/9/2014, 4:07 pm

I have scoped every SF shot and shot a 99, and not scoped any shot and shot a 99.  It all depends on how your head is screwed on that day.  Still looking for that 100SF.  100 T or R come a bit more often.  Look on the right here>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by john bickar on 12/9/2014, 4:37 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:Is checking the scope part of your shot process?  You do have a written shot process right?
Yes and yes, and it should be in your shot process. More on this in a bit.
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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by john bickar on 12/9/2014, 4:44 pm

Found it. Previously discussed on TargetTalk a year or so ago.


Last edited by john bickar on 12/9/2014, 7:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by LenV on 12/9/2014, 5:00 pm

Congrats on your first (of many) clean targets. Good shooting
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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by Rob Kovach on 12/9/2014, 5:24 pm

John Bickar wrote:Often people will avoid scoping every shot as a crutch against the internal "pressure" that they feel as a "good" target starts to develop. 

In doing so, they are tacitly acknowledging a weakness in their mental game plan, and stubbornly refusing to take any steps to overcome it

Conversely, they way to learn how to shoot 100s is to put yourself in the position of having 9 10s on a target as often as possible.
John--you really hit the nail on the head with this^^
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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by dan allen on 12/9/2014, 8:16 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:
John Bickar wrote:Often people will avoid scoping every shot as a crutch against the internal "pressure" that they feel as a "good" target starts to develop. 

In doing so, they are tacitly acknowledging a weakness in their mental game plan, and stubbornly refusing to take any steps to overcome it
I am not sure I agree with this. As we all know Bullseye is a large part mental. I do avoid scoping every shot because it does cause me anxiety as a good target develops. I believe that not scoping my targets is how I overcome this. Unless I have a reason to question my zero I don't scope at all.


Last edited by dan allen on 12/10/2014, 6:31 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by Rob Kovach on 12/9/2014, 10:06 pm

I have the same problem, but obviously worse than you since you are 2600+, but I have made huge strides by following Lanny Bassham's mental management steps.  I visualize a lot more and keep reminding myself that I really am a 293 shooter and the only thing holding me back is my mental program.  Now my meltdowns are rarely more than 1 magazine in sustained fire.

Oh, and to the point.  I scope.  It's part of my process.  Every time I raise the gun, the process is the program and the other thoughts/scores/previous shots aren't on the process list.

I think it's important to get over the "need" to not know your score.  It certainly makes it easier to not be distracted by score if you don't know it, but when your score keeper congratulates you on how good you are shooting and tells you your running score, if you aren't conditioned to handle it, you aren't doing yourself much good.
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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by john bickar on 12/9/2014, 11:31 pm

dan allen wrote:
Rob Kovach wrote:
John Bickar wrote:Often people will avoid scoping every shot as a crutch against the internal "pressure" that they feel as a "good" target starts to develop. 

In doing so, they are tacitly acknowledging a weakness in their mental game plan, and stubbornly refusing to take any steps to overcome it
I am not sure I agree with this. As we all know Bullseye is a large part mental. I do avoid scoping every shot because it does cause me anxiety as a good target develops. I believe that not scoping my targets is how I overcome this. I can't change how I react to a stressful situation. Unless I have a reason to question my zero I don't scope at all. I primarily shoot indoor gallery and find out when the match is over how I did. If I shoot a high 90 slow and a clean timed I may as well box the gun if I know it. It is how my brain is wired and I can't change it.

Keep telling yourself these things and you will make them come true.

Or tell yourself that you can change how you react to any situation on the firing line, and that will become your reality.

Of course, it takes a lot of hard work to do the latter, but it's your choice.
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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by dronning on 12/9/2014, 11:40 pm

"It is how my brain is wired and I can't change it." 

Actually Lanny Bassham an Olympic Gold medalist in Rifle and author of With Winning in Mind, has made a good living teaching people how they can "rewire" it.

- Dave
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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by Ghillieman on 12/10/2014, 4:08 pm

I have a .22lr 50 yard SF target hanging up in my garage with a score of 97 on it. The score is nothing special but, I had fired nine 10's in a row. I decided to check my scope before the last shot, I don't know why, and saw all 10's. Then realizing I just had make this last shot a 10 for a cleaned 50 yard target. I was a nervous wreck, choked, and shot a 7 out the top.

I have it hanging as a reminder of what can happen when you break your cadence.

Once your groups are centered, leave the scope alone, and concentrate on your shot process.
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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by LenV on 12/10/2014, 4:58 pm

Scopes are for checking your zero then should be left alone. Wow, that sounds easy. I have been trying to do that for 40 years. A friend (John) looked over at me a couple of matches ago and grabbed my scope and pointed it down. That probably would have worked fine except it was the 45 match. John's idea didn't allow for the fact that I have zero problem seeing 45 holes at 50 yds. I will continue to keep trying to ignore the scope. I will give myself another 20 years and see if I can break the habit.

Len
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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by Rob Kovach on 12/10/2014, 6:00 pm

The mental part of this sport is my focus right now.  I will continue to scope as part of my process as I find great reward from the feeling I get when I start the subsequent shot process and have absolutely NO emotion or feeling other than the happiness I feel when I'm shooting.

Even when my mental program falls off the rails due to the same thing that Ghillieman described, when I get back on track, I feel that blissful feeling again when I get back on program.

Oh, I've also been shooting iron sights only and I need to make sure that I'm not seeing the sights differently from shot to shot (clouds or other light changes)
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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by CR10X on 12/10/2014, 6:18 pm

John B:  Great comments and stated better than I ever could.  I think some shooters may or may not benefit from not scoping and potentially completing a good string.  But the group eventually has to be looked at and scored and the the next string commences with all the same potential issues related to scoping, just 10 or less shots later....

“To Scope or Not to Scope…that is the question.”
 
Whether tis nobler to cast thine eye only upon the sight, and believing only in one’s instincts, finding one’s true center only in the minds eye until the walk of doom is upon you.
 
Or lose thyself within the tube of terror and face the reality of one’s own short-coming and frailty, the results hanging there, like little satellites orbiting the dark center of our souls…
 
Any way you look at it, you eventually have to look at the results of your shots so why not go ahead and scope your shots?  Not for analysis, but to confirm what you were supposed to have already seen when the shot was fired.  And if the results are not similar, wouldn't you want to know NOW, before the other 9 shots go down range?
 
However, do not dwell upon the scope as the source of all knowledge and let it determine what you will do next.  We have a shot process to follow. That will be determined by you and what you saw during the shot.  Scoping during a match is just a confirmation that you saw it correctly, or that you need to see it better, or you need to make a sight adjustment.  You have to decide which is best and what to do.
 

Personally, I scope for every shot at the long line and rarely at the short line.

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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by Jack H on 12/10/2014, 6:28 pm

You can't handle the truth of the scope.  Or you can. 
But better you know the truth of your sights.
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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by john bickar on 12/10/2014, 7:21 pm

Rob Kovach wrote:I will continue to scope as part of my process as I find great reward from the feeling I get when I start the subsequent shot process and have absolutely NO emotion or feeling other than the happiness I feel when I'm shooting.
You are on the path to enlightenment, young Padawan...
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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by Froneck on 2/23/2015, 9:06 pm

I have been to Benning a few times and watched the AMU shoot, Some scope after every shot some don't. Most do scope the first few shots to confirm zero and then after the 10th shot to see how they have done. I guess it's a matter of preference. I know sometimes it will add pressure! I shot a 96-9x once, yes the last shot was a 6. I think the first 9 were shot in 5 minutes and the last shot took 4 minutes and 50 seconds!

Frank

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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by Rob Kovach on 2/23/2015, 9:17 pm

I shot a 50' 98 slow with the 45 once...I didn't need to scope because I could see the holes were in there without the scope....
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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by Froneck on 2/23/2015, 10:07 pm

That must have been a hard target to score Rob, 10 ring completely gone!
I never aced the 50' Slow Fire target, I tried my hardest though! At one inter club postal team match I accidentally hung a slow fire for rapid. Too lazy to walk down and change it I figured we could use a folded rapid fire target to score the slow fire I used.  I aced the slow fire target in Rapid fire and only time I've ever done it!. Proves it's all a mental game!

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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by Rob Kovach on 2/23/2015, 10:23 pm

Our league makes us shoot 2 separate 5 shot strings for 50' matches.  It wasn't hard to score at all.

http://www.bullseyeforum.net/t2192-i-shot-a-98-slow-at-50-with-the-45-today?highlight=98+slow+fire
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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by Jack H on 2/23/2015, 10:45 pm

From my almost forgotten archives: Scoped every shot and called the 9 before I looked.  The 9 was shot 6 or 7.  Not #10.  Still looking for that 100.  I know I can do it.  Just got to keep working at it.

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Re: Do you scope each shot?

Post by DeweyHales on 2/24/2015, 4:59 pm

I scope each shot. Right now, I'm shooting all irons. If the shots are on call, I know I'm truly focused on the front sight. 

If you can call your shots, you know when a target will be full of tens. So, the opportunity to feel that pressure is always there.  Not scoping doesn't change that.
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