Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

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Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by LenV on 12/16/2014, 6:43 pm

I want to get a classification card for the new steel and production classes and have been trying to figure out what 45 options there are. Steel is easy. I will use my model 41 that is set up for standard pistol and shoot my hardball gun with reduced loads for Centerfire and 45. The problems start when you try and find accurate production pistols that meet their new regs. I think a model 17 would work for 22 and a K frame for the Center fire but I am stumped on what pistol to use for the 45 match. I would love to shoot a 25-2 but they have a barrel length that is too long. I have been searching for an alternative and haven't found anything except possibly a 625 with the 5" barrel. Has anyone found a production 45 that meets the new regs that is also accurate?  ( under 6" barrel, not single action only, not a custom shop gun, in production at one time, sights can't be altered from original profile )

Len  ( I still can't believe they eliminated most N-frames)
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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by CR10X on 12/16/2014, 7:14 pm

I believe the rules for production say specifically may not exceed 6 inches for revolvers.

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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by CFPlinker on 12/16/2014, 7:24 pm

Production division revolver barrels cannot EXCEED 6" in length. All 45ACP model 625 have barrels of 4", 5", 5-1/2", or 6". so they meet the barrel length requirement. Model 25, 25-1, and 25-2 were originally cataloged with 6-1/2" barrels. However the standard length was changed to 6" in 1979. Additional lengths of 3", 4", 5-1/2", and 8-3/8" were added to in subsequent years.  Any of these post 1979 pistols would meet the barrel length requirement.

(It looks like CR10X and I were posting at the same time)

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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by LenV on 12/16/2014, 8:16 pm

It is the may not exceed part that makes my 25-2 model of 1955 not legal. I mentioned above that I was thinking about the 625. I was not aware that they went to shorter barrels in the 25-2 after 1979. I suppose what I was really asking with this question is, is there any semi-auto pistol in your experience that it is even worth taking a look at that meets the new regs?  If not, I can see the production division really being the revolver division if you want to compete. There is no competition for the model 17 (sr22,m&p22, closest). And I can't think of any plastic gun that would compete with a good wheel gun for centerfire ( model 52 no dash would work) but I was wondering if there was a 45 ( like the 945 but not performance center) that would be worth trying.

Len
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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by kwixdraw on 12/16/2014, 9:14 pm

Is it even worth considering a 25-5 in .45Colt ?  I have a 4" that will stack one shot on top of the other with several loads. Might be the exception but its been a great gun for me. Carried it on duty for a long time.
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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by DeweyHales on 12/16/2014, 9:47 pm

I've had really good luck at 25 yards with a Springfield XD 45 5" model. I've seen Wes Fleming do well with one too at 50 yards. 

I'll test mine at 50 when I get a chance and post a thumbs up or down.
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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by Rob Kovach on 12/17/2014, 8:08 am

What about that horrible double action Colt 1991?  At least it's kinda like a 1911?
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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by LenV on 12/17/2014, 7:27 pm

What you mean Rob is that is you might be able to fit 1911 grips on it but you would never be able to make it fit into a BE pistol box. Kind of a sad testimony to where Colt is falling. Sad
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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by rfmiller on 12/18/2014, 11:56 am

Don't know much about the "production" matches, but how about a CZ 97 B?  Cajun Gun Works does trigger and accuracy work on them    http://www.cajungunworks.com/cz-97b_-_bd.html

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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by LenV on 12/18/2014, 5:22 pm

rfmiller,

   You had me curious. Nice looking pistol but no. One of the rules is that the pistol can't go to a custom shop. And you can change the sights but not the profile of the sights. I think those two rules pretty much eliminated my 92A1 for centerfire. Thanks for your input and the input of the others that responded.

DeweyHales, Keep me posted please on how that works.

Kwixdraw,   I have shot Reeves with the Long Colt and a 44 special. The 25-2 with the lower recoil and moonclips just works better for me. But all of this is for fun, so to misquote my DI "shoot em if you got em".

Len
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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by rfmiller on 12/18/2014, 6:09 pm

Ok Len, then how about trying a stock gun?  It seems you could get the decocker version (regular front sight, not the fiber optic of the B model), then get an adjustable rear sight as is used on the 85 Combat.  Of course you would have to be sure that the dovetails were the same, but I bet they probably are.

CZ 97 BD

Then you would have a production pistol with adjustable sights.  Check out the testimonials.  I know several shooters who use CZ's in Practical Shooting, including one of the top production division shooters in USPSA

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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by CR10X on 12/18/2014, 7:20 pm

d) The front sight must be a non-adjustable sight. The rear sight may
be adjustable, sights may be replaced but they must use the original
dovetail cuts and must retain the original configuration of the firearm
sight. Fiber optic sights are permitted.

The following firearm modifications are prohibited:
a) Milling of slide, slide ports are allowed on only factory-original
approved models.
b) Custom-shop firearms.
c) Changes in the original factory sight configuration of the firearm
are prohibited, front adjustable sights.

Check out all the rules.  As I sometimes say, it's helps to know them before you break them, especially when cash is on the line......

Just be happy they did not keep the "first shot double action only" when they copied this from the Action Pistol rules.

CR

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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by LenV on 12/18/2014, 11:45 pm

I checked out the 97 and while I was looking I found this one that really caught my eye. Has anyone fired one of these H&K Expert pistols. Looks like it has all the requirements. Might  be worth a look.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_47/products_id/15389/Heckler+%26+Koch+USP+Expert+.45+12rd
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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by CFPlinker on 12/19/2014, 5:50 pm

Single action semi-automatic pistols are prohibited (Rule 3(g)) in the Production category. You would need to get the DAO variation of this pistol.

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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by LenV on 12/19/2014, 6:26 pm

This one is listed as SA/DA. If your talking about the H&K. DAO not required. It just can't be SAO.


Last edited by OldMaster64 on 12/19/2014, 6:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by CR10X on 12/19/2014, 6:27 pm

Please don't take this the wrong way and I'm not trying to argue with anyone.  Match directors do spend a lot of time reading the rules (especially new ones and changes), asking questions of referees and NRA representatives.  (Sometimes even they have to think about some of the questions we come up with.)  We (Match Directors) have to have a good understanding and background since we are going to be responsible for make sure the matches are in accordance with the rules.  It is the expectation of every competitor, and the responsibility of every match director / range person,  that the rules are consistently interpreted and applied.  It really helps if the competitors spend a little time with the book as well.  But again, the language can be confusing and some things have to be read in context. 

Edited to add:
If you can find it in the archives over at Brian Enos's forum, years ago there was a LOT of discussion, baring of teeth, howls of rage, righteous indignation, practicing of law without a license, name calling and wailing against the injustices, declarations of death of the sport, eventual capitulation and reconciliation when the original "Open", "Metallic" and "Production" rules were developed for Action Pistol.  Well, I'm probably exaggerating (a little). 

As long as it is a production arm, it can be double action / single action.  The rules prohibit single action guns.  Therefore a Beretta 92 FS would qualify for centerfire, a 9mm 1911 would not.     

Springfield had a heck of time when they first advertised the XD series as "single action" type trigger pull while the Glock was OK as striker fired.  Eventually the XD became understood (read lots of conversations with the rules guys) as striker fired and therefor considered "double action" like the Glock.  

Eventually SA created the 5.25 XDM series to maximize the gun under the "production" rules for Action Pistol  (barrel length, adjustable sights, production model, etc.)  

Kinda funny, the more you want to have a "level playing field" or create a contest so people can shoot what they have, more people decide they need to make even more classes and rules.  Then everybody wants the most they can get within the rules. 

One reason I liked bullseye was the rule book WAS one of the shortest ones in any of the shooting sports.   Sigh, those days may soon be gone.


Last edited by CR10X on 12/19/2014, 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by LenV on 12/19/2014, 6:51 pm

Quote,

  " Then everybody wants the most they can get within the rules. " Well yea. Smile
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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by Jack H on 12/19/2014, 6:53 pm

I am kind of surprised they have not made a class of production revolvers only (ala DR revolvers in the other calibres) and a separate class for semi auto production like Sig 220, 226, (and Sig 22 conversions are pretty good), or CZ, glocck, PPQ etc.

Another thing - Only the purest BE shooter has or will acquire the necessary firearms for a "production" 2700. 

I have a second 25-2 that is much newer than my early 1955 5 screw.  I have to look to see if it is a 6".  I have OMM in 22 and 38, and 17 and 14 S&W.  If the 25-2 is a 6" I am good to go.  If not I will not on purpose acquire a production legal 45. 

No, wait.  I have a 220.  And its factory 22 conversion.  OO. OO.  Is a sig 22 conversion on a sig legal?
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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by CR10X on 12/19/2014, 7:21 pm

Has anyone researched this one yet?

I think the SIG 220  and a conversion might work, but the language says "firearm","handgun", "revolver" and I'm not sure the conversions are technically a "production firearm" (no serial number, firearm transfer restrictions, etc.?)  

To me it would seem to work, and I think it would be a great solution and within the spirit of the rules.  I shot a number of the earlier series 220's and they were highly accurate for the class of guns.  

But as a Match Director, I'd send the question to NRA for clarification.  

"A Production Firearm is a semi-automatic
handgun or revolver which is or has been a catalog item readily
available to the general public equipped with factory notch & post
sights. All standard safety features of firearms must operate properly.
The firearm shall have no visible internal of external modifications
except as follows:"

So, I would ask the NRA if the conversions were "firearms". I would really expect the answer to be yes.

Again, has anyone researched this one yet?

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Re: Any reccomendation for 45 for " production " matches

Post by LenV on 12/19/2014, 7:26 pm

No fair Jack. I was going to ask if a 9mm conversion on a 22 sig 226 was legal. It costs a lot less money to buy the 22 and convert then to buy the 9 and convert. And you end up with exactly the same pistols.

Len   I see CR10X beat me with a similar question but still curious
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