New EIC ammo for rules change

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New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Jkvandal on Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:18 pm

First topic message reminder :

So it seems that the ammo has been opened up for the 1911 for EIC competition to any weight metal jacketed bullets...unfortunately this doesn't quite fall into my plans of casting my bullets for the upcoming season.

What options are out there for jacketed ammo that will be a step up for accuracy and recoil from the 230gr for the .45? I'd assume it would be some sort of hollow point bullet between 185-200gr?

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Rob Kovach on Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:03 am

Brian Mason wrote:
Jkvandal wrote:
Brian Mason wrote:My new short line load: 185 GR JHP, NO powder, just Large Pistol MAGNUM primer, 3 lb recoil spring. Bullets will not clear the barrel until the fifth shot, which will knock all five projectiles into the x-ring at once.
Perfect!  That way I can really make that Bullseye powder last, thanks for the tip! 
You're quite welcome, John! You see, all this reloading for Service Pistol matches is new to me because when I legged out, ammo was issued on the line in Dixie cups. In fact, in the match I legged out in I was issued 27 rounds of corroded WWI ammo and 3 rounds of 30 Luger. But I didn't protest because at least it wasn't TZZ. In fact, one poor SOB got 30 rounds of TZZ and the recoil from the first shot blew his arm cleanly off (creating quite an unsafe condition on a firing line with 1400 people--matches were better attended back then). He still legged with his good arm. In the end they caught Charlie Askins with a 1911 modified to shoot .177 pellets and DQ'd him, then they DQ'd Joe Pascarella for using a dot (they also charged him with a felony). Andy Moody ended up winning the match despite drinking 4 cups of coffee (Pike's Place Blend), smoking 3 packs of cigarettes (menthol), and disassembling his pistol twice during Rapid Fire. Joe Benner turned out to be some general wearing Joe Benner's jacket, and First Leather scored a 294.

At least that's the way I recall it, but you have to remember this was back in 2013 and then again I've been breathing a lot of primer smoke shooting indoor league, and I don't necessarily remember so good.
^^^^That's some funny stuff right there ^^^^^

I just bought 1000 Nozlers from midway and it was $189+20 shipping. They were in stock.


Last edited by Rob Kovach on Wed Dec 31, 2014 9:33 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by robert84010 on Wed Dec 31, 2014 3:19 am

You should be charged with a felony for improperly signing your scorecard when you are a 2650+ shooter in contention for the national championship......

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Hollow points allowed?

Post by ric1911a1 on Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:39 am

Where do the new rules say hollow points can be used? It says:

AMMUNITION.  Pistols fired in CMP EIC and National Trophy Matches will be required to shoot ammunition loaded with metal-jacketed bullets.  Specific bullet weights will no longer be required, however.  In the last 15 years, accurized M9 9mm pistols have dominated the top ranks of the National Trophy Individual and Team Pistol Matches.  By allowing any safe jacketed ammunition, it will make the M1911 more competitive and will make other approved Service Pistols capable of shooting 250 minimum EIC cut scores.


I hope they will be allowed, since I have quite a few, but I don't see where this allows them.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Rob Kovach on Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:48 am

I see a metal jacket on these bullets.  Jacket is what the J stands for in JHP. 
I would interpret the rule as JHPs are legal under the new rule.
45 Acp (.451 Diameter) - 185 GR JHP
Code: R187-A
Price: $135.55
Sorry, we are currently sold out of '45 Acp (.451 Diameter) - 185 GR JHP'. Please check back later.
Quantity in Basket: none

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by DavidR on Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:52 am

Technically a FULL METAL JACKET would incase the whole bullet  and a hollow point doesn't do that, JHP is how they are described so im sure they will have to make a call on this one way or the other. If a glock could shoot lead they would have kept the any safe ammo rule they originally were going to go with. They want the glock guys to get interested in the sport now. Whats funny to me is the cmp brags about how they got 200 opinions before changing the rules, 200???Why not send the questions to the whole NRA members, bet the outcome would have been different.


Last edited by DavidR on Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by scrum derringer on Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:56 am

These will be legal too

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by brassmaster on Wed Dec 31, 2014 8:27 pm

One of the CMP proposed rule changes that I saw stated that the committee was contemplating requiring a minimum of 250 for awarding a Leg. So, even if there is an ammo change allowing lighter loads, unless the badge chasers that attend EIC matches where snagging a 225 or less would get them a Leg, the 250 minimum rule, if passed, should keep the best shooters winning the Legs.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by DeweyHales on Tue Jan 06, 2015 8:51 pm

This is the rule as written:



  • Service Pistol. Service Pistol competitors may use any safe ammunition that is loaded with metal-jacketed bullets. Non-jacketed, wad-cutter or lead bullets may not be used. 

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Jkvandal on Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:13 pm

So looks like that rules out the jacketed SWCs but not the JHPs?

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by LenV on Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:26 pm

Jkvandal wrote:So looks like that rules out the jacketed SWCs but not the JHPs?


 I would not be to sure that the new rule would rule out SWC's. The NRA recognizes the difference between SWC and WC. You can shoot SWC in the DSR match but no WC's are allowed. CMP is not the NRA so that is going to be another thing that needs clarified. Lots of 40 ammo looks and prints like a SWC.

Len

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Jkvandal on Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:53 pm

But there shouldn't be any issue with JHPs not being fully jacketed I hope...right?

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by DavidR on Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:10 am

only until someone challenges the cmp on each variance and they render a decision will you know for sure. As I re-read it, metal jacketed should include jacketed wad cutters and hollow points but only they can decide.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Rob Kovach on Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:36 am

I received a clarification already.  I sent the CMP this photo of 2 different "jacketed" bullets--one a Nosler 185Gr JHP that isn't jacketed on the tip and the other a ZERO 230gr FMJ that isn't jacketed on the base.

Here's the photo:


And here's CMP's response:

Rob,

Both styles of jacketed projectiles are acceptable under 6.6.2 Pistol Ammunition. 

Best Regards, 
Mark Johnson
Chief Operating Officer
Civilian Marksmanship Program

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Jack H on Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:21 pm

Are JSWC out for sure?

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by james r chapman on Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:15 pm

Jack H wrote:Are JSWC out for sure?
Gotta send em a pic...

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by marlin1881 on Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:46 pm

How about plated bullets?  There are more bullet companies than Berrys, that make completely covered copper bullets.  This probably depends on what "jacketed" actually means.  It used to mean a drawn-copper jacket where lead was pushed into the "jacket".  Does this include a lead bullet where copper is electroplated around the lead?

And, while we're discussing this...  How about solid copper bullets?  (Copper jacketed with copper?  ;-))

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Rob Kovach on Wed Jan 07, 2015 8:36 pm

I believe JSWCs are legal.  They are not prohibited because they are not wadcutters, they are SEMI-wadcutters.  If you want something else use the 165gr Button Nose and the wadcutter name doesn't come into play.

If you really want to shoot plated or copper bullets, go for it.  I've never found one that is consistent enough for long distance shooting, and no match director will ever take your ammo and cut open the bullet to see if it's a jacket or a plating.  As long as your round looks copper and not lead, you are good to go.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by DavidR on Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:36 pm

marlin1881 wrote:How about plated bullets?  There are more bullet companies than Berrys, that make completely covered copper bullets.  This probably depends on what "jacketed" actually means.  It used to mean a drawn-copper jacket where lead was pushed into the "jacket".  Does this include a lead bullet where copper is electroplated around the lead?

And, while we're discussing this...  How about solid copper bullets?  (Copper jacketed with copper?  ;-))

don't waste your time or money on copper washed bullets many tests of all the major brands show they are not accurate for bullseye and only good for plinking or shooting steel.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by LenV on Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:37 pm

Going back to the original question. I think you should also consider the Hornady 185 gr HAP. I have used this bullet recently and it is very accurate. On sale right now at Midway (of course I ordered more before the sale). I think you could give these a try. I compromised between a kinda hot load and a weenie load and I load with 4.2 gr of BE. Remember the HAP is just like the XTP but they removed the grooves that make it expand. Just my .02.

Len

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Jkvandal on Sat Jan 10, 2015 6:43 pm

Len, 

Good find! That could be a good bullet to use at 25 yards so I can save the more expensive Nosler for 50 where is accuracy really shines. 

-John

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Rob Kovach on Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:12 pm

I have plenty of 230gr FMJS for the short line!

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by KenO on Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:28 pm

I bought some of these to try Nosler competition .451  185 gr.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by jmdavis on Sat Jan 10, 2015 10:12 pm

The Noslers are $167/k at Powder Valley.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by Rob Kovach on Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:03 pm

KenO, those Noslers are 100% legit.  4.3gr BE .468"crimp 1.21"OAL is a good formula for my gun.  That is the most accurate of all loads in my gun.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

Post by KenO on Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:39 pm

Thanks much for info Rob, I will try that load.

jmdavis, I should have checked PV, if these work out, I will be ordering again.

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Re: New EIC ammo for rules change

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